Summer 2012

What are the Key Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity?

By Sean McDowell

Mormonism is everywhere. The Republican nominee for president is a Mormon, there is a play on Broadway about the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church has launched a multimillion-dollar ad campaign called “I’m a Mormon.” In light of the recent interest in Mormonism, it will be helpful to compare and contrast some of the key differences between Mormonism and Christianity.

Mormonism puts a heavy burden of works on its followers. Although there are some passages that talk about grace and free salvation (2 Nephi 31:19; 1 Nephi 2:4; Mosiah 26:40), the overwhelming emphasis in the Mormon scriptures is on earning salvation through obedience to commandments and refraining from sin. For example, Alma 5:27 says, “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble?” The next passage says you must be entirely stripped of pride or you cannot meet God.

Moroni 10:32 says, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you.” God may have provided an opportunity for salvation through the death of Jesus, according to Mormonism, but you have to keep all the commandments and follow all the ordinances to reach the highest level of heaven. The onus is on you. This seems in sharp contrast to the grace-filled message of the Bible (Eph. 2:8–10; Titus 3:5; John 6:29) where works stem naturally from a recognition that we have been saved.

The view of faith in the Mormon scriptures differs from the Bible. Alma 32:17 says, “Yea,there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe,for he knoweth it.” In other words, faith involves believing something we do not know.If we knew it, there would be no need for faith.

But the Bible proposes a different relationship between faith and reason. Knowledge is not the opposite of belief, as the Mormon scriptures suggest. Rather, the Bible presents a view of faith that is based upon what we do know. Jesus healed the paralytic so the people would know that he has the authority of God (Mark 2:10). As Biola professor J.P. Moreland oft en says, faith involves trusting what we have reason to believe is true.

I suspect the reason the Book of Mormon has this view of faith and knowledge is that the Mormons’ claims cannot be investigated. The cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon have not been located (i.e. Zarahemla), the gold plates cannot be examined and Book of Mormon “historical sites” cannot be excavated in the same way biblical sites can be. When there is no convincing external evidence corroborating a belief, it must be based upon experience, feeling and blind faith. This may be the view of faith in the Book of Mormon, but it is decidedly not the biblical view (see John 20:30–31).

There are many more differences between Christianity and Mormonism (some more central than others). Consider a few beliefs of the LDS church:

Humans have the potential to achieve godhood if they follow Mormon teachings. In his King Follett speech, Joseph Smith Jr. said, “Here then is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God; andyou have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods have done before you.”

There is no original sin. The Articles of Faith 2 says, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” This is in contrast to Romans 5, which says death came to all through one man’s sin. This raises the troubling question for Mormons of why Jesus even had to die.

God the Father has a physical body. D&C 130:22 says, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.”Thus, man is made in the image of the body of God (Moses 6:9). This is in contrast with John 4:24, which says, “God is spirit.”

Much more could be said about salvation, heaven, the Trinity, revelation and the person of Christ. But this should suffice to make the point that, although Christians and Mormons use the same words such as grace, faith, God and sin, they mean very different things by them.


Sean McDowell (’98, M.A. ’03) is a popular author and speaker whose work focuses on articulating and defending a biblical worldview. He serves as head of the Bible department at Capistrano Valley Christian Schools, where he teaches philosophy, theology and apologetics. Find him online at seanmcdowell.org.

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  • Tom June 25, 2012 at 7:03 PM

    Christ's atonement saves ALL humans on this earth from death and hell. We will all live again bcz of his marvelous gift. But Faith with out works is dead. Not only is it biblical but it's common sense. The Lord often answers prayers through the service of another. Without works his gospel and plan would be frustrated and pointless.

    You have to look at the audience Paul was talking to. The Ephesians needed a little help from an apostle to motivate them to love and serve one another. There are places where Paul stresses faith and places where he stresses works. No where in Mormon doctrine does it say we can Work our way to heaven, bcz we can't. You have to consider the whole gospel of Jesus Christ and not bits and pieces of truth or a single passage and try to make a religion look bad or commit yourself to attacking another. Christ showed through his actions that Faith and works are essential to being a Christian and our progression of trying to put off the natural man. Why try to argue a point of doctrine that helps others serve each other. Why don't we argue abortion, birth control and the attacks from the White House on Christianity. Mormons are not the enemy Sean, those that attack them and other Christians are serving some one other than the Savior.

  • Tiffanie June 25, 2012 at 7:56 PM

    pretty sure you missed understood every passage that you put in your article. Like every christian we believe in repentance. And if you do sin you can repent and there for be blameless before God. Also you miss understood what Alma was trying to say. He was saying to have faith is to not have a visual sign from heaven, but rather a sign of knowing from God by a feeling of warmth in your bossism. (you need to keep reading and not take out of context. This isn't politics). Also the church doesn't place a large "burden" on our shoulders. We choose to do what we do in the church and choose to live our lives in a way that we can return home to our Heavenly Father after this life. Also we believe the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Jesus Christ that we use with the Bible. To better explain what Mormons believe I direct you to "The Articles of Faith" all of them. These are 13 statements clearly explaining what we believe. And to clarify your thoughts of what "we" think AoF #2 stands for is that "one man" meaning our selves are to blame for our sins, and the Atonement is very much a part of our religion. hence repentance, Jesus suffered for us so that we may repent and be forgiven when we sin. Not for what Adam has done. Also I urge you to go to mormon.org and read what you have sited. That should give you a better idea. Otherwise, sorry to say, your article is not based on fact and is wrong. You are trying to say what "we" Latter-day Saints, "Mormons" think, and you aren't one. So how would you really know.
    sincerely hoping you can clearify your misunderstandings,
    Tiffanie

  • Darin June 26, 2012 at 5:07 AM

    well said Tiffanie,glad to see someone stand and get some of these people straight if they would all take the time to read and pray it would be clear to them all but too many take little pieces from here and there and make it into what they want it to be instead of what it really is ,good job

  • Joe Vigliatura June 26, 2012 at 5:22 AM

    Interesting article. Not very factual, but interesting. This is the kind of fodder your average "christian" uses to feel good about condemning others beliefs. It's too bad we can't all work together for the edification of the body of Christ instead of trying to turn people against higher thoughts and faith. There is a reason the Church had to be restored. This article provides some examples of why.

  • Charles June 26, 2012 at 5:49 AM

    More witch hunting I see. I'll bet the paycheck that a Democratic party is behing this to discredit the presidential candidate which happens to be Morman. I am absolutly offended. I would suggest that if someone doesnt understand something then to either learn or keep thier mouth shut. Atleast that is what I teach my five year old.

  • Kenneth J. Griese June 26, 2012 at 5:50 AM

    Your reasoning is childishly amusing and very nearsighted. Do you also believe the world is flat? Did you get your authority to write your opinion from God or from man? You have a LONG WAY to go to understand your God.

  • West Granger June 26, 2012 at 6:11 AM

    Their are differences but most pastors get most of it wrong. Mormons believe we cannot get to Heaven without the grace of Christ, They believe in following the example of Christ and working to help others to come unto Christ..Perfection is not required as they look to the Savior, Jesus Christ as the only author of our salvation. Faith is not a perfect knowledge.. .Hebrews 11 Faith is of things not seen....By faith Abraham went out not knowing whither he went. FYI Mormons congregations study the Bible for two years out of every four years. Actual differences are: Belief in the Return "restoration" of the original church of Christ. This includes the trend that lasted from Adam down to John the Baptist was cut off in a Great Apostasy and the Restoration of all things that Jesus spoke about to the Apostles. That means prophets who Jesus chose and ordained are back. Not the same as the protestant idea of pastors on every corner being prophets. The Book of Mormon as a second witness of Jesus Christ.. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints believe that God is literally the Father of our spiritual beings, we are more than just mere creations. He will always be our Father and will always be our God. Jesus Christ's suffering on the cross and in the Garden brought about an "atonement' that paid the price of original sin. Therefore Christ paid the price of Salvation for unbelieving babies and young children who die.God has a physical body that is glorified and perfected yet his influence is everywhere and he is all knowing, all -seeing and omnipotent. There are major differences.. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose and unity, not a one in three God. They use the Sons prayer to the Father to illustrate this. But faith and grace is pretty much the same as what Mormons believe in most evangelical churches I have attended. Too many clergymen don't correctly represent what Mormons believe. This article is better than most.

  • Renee Whitehead Malae June 26, 2012 at 6:40 AM

    When I clicked "like" on this article, I was "liking" Tiffanie's explanation... You go girl! I'm exhausted listening to the "worlds" version of my religion. Being Christian, in my simple mind, is simply believing in Christ...and I do, so I'm Christian. nuff said......

  • Scott T. June 26, 2012 at 7:31 AM

    First of all Mormons are Christian (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and they use the Book of Mormon AND the Bible. This writer obviously didn't know much about what he was talking about-like the fact that Mormons believe that Christ redeemed men from the fall of Adam, that he atoned for each and every one of us to overcome natural death, that comment about original sin and that Mormons aren't sure why Jesus had to die is bogus. I bet Mr. McDowell doesn't even understand the Atonement. This man also seems to be faithless and tries to say that the Bible encourages a lack of faith-which is a fallacy. One need look only at James 2:22 "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" and Mark 2:5 "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be aforgiven thee." along with the famed story of the woman who touched Jesus' garments to be healed as shown in Matthew 9:20-22 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:

    " For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee hole. And the woman was made whole from that hour." The woman would not have been cured if she had no faith. It was only after she had faith that she was cured, her faith had made her "whole". All of the miracles seen through the Book of Mormon and the Bible are done through faith, not through an individual asking for proof. Mr. McDowell seems to fail to understand this. Also, the title and certain subsequent selections of his article should be classified as libel, because members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ARE Christian. This article just goest to show one of the ignorance and bigotry of people in society.

  • Rieley June 26, 2012 at 7:53 AM

    After reading the entire article, I felt MUCH better after reading the comments. My faith is NOT blind. Mr. McDowell should refocus on articulating and defending a biblical worldview. A scholar should not condemn those holding to a differing belief system. I believe in Christ, & I am a child of a living God

  • John June 26, 2012 at 7:59 AM

    Thank you for opening this discussion. You were respectful of LDS perspective while pointing out real differences. One thing to consider: not all Christians agree. Aren't there something like 10,000 Christian churches/denominations? So your premise if flawed from the start. The truth is we all have different views of the nature of God and many other points of doctrine.

  • Slava Shabanov June 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM

    Love everyone's comments! Article is nothing more of a propaganda! You should read articles on Mormons what some local News papers in Russia have to say:)

  • JO H June 26, 2012 at 9:17 AM

    The very belief in eternal progression (that a later day saint can acheive godhood) makes Mormons not Christians. The Bible says there is ONE God. If someone believes that you can in anyway somehow become a god, then you believe that there is more than one God. It's polytheism. That goes against what the Bible says. I used to be Mormon, I know what The Book of Mormon teaches. I know that it contradicts what the Bible says. Why would God contradict his own word? Especially so many years after Jesus came to Earth. If you really just sit down and think about it, it doesn't make sense.

  • Devin Holbrook June 26, 2012 at 9:18 AM

    Dear Biola,

    I must insist that an article be retracted. It is offensive, incorrect, poorly sited, and not in context. The author has no background with the subject and has used the view of a few in society to skew the beliefs and doctrine of others. His "scriptural references" are not used in context, without any background information, and taking away from the actual biblical authors intent and meanings. He has attempted to change the concepts and views to his liking and perspective. There are over 10,000 different Christain denominations/churches that all believe different aspects and practices of the "Christian" belief. Not any one church is practicing the full laws or teachings of the Bible, therefore, it is offensive that one single denomination has been singled out and discriminated against. Fix this issue. It is not tolerated with other religions, race, nationality, working class, thus it is not acceptable to attack another's religion, church, and beliefs. There has been enough banter and slurs directed toward the "Mormons" and this is not acceptable. I for one stand up against this indecency and degradation of others and their beliefs. I will not tolerate such adolescence and closed minded words. As such, many hold Biola directly responsible for this disrespect, prejudice, and discrimination. Biola and its editors chose to run this article and therefore, your credit and professionalism is marred. It is demanded that there be a retraction statement apologizing for this outrageous attack on what one thinks the "Mormons" believe. If the sources were diverse and taken from all sources, non-mormon and mormon a like, then there would not have been a large distaste for this article.

    The article to be retracted is:

    What are the Key Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity?
    By Sean McDowell

    Respectfully,

    Devin Holbrook
    Task Force Lightning Horse
    US Army
    KAF, Afghanistan
    BLACKJACKS!

  • Forrest Phelps-Cook June 26, 2012 at 9:52 AM

    In the Bible, Jesus told His apostles, “Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
    also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16). Christ visited these “other sheep” in the Americas after He was resurrected, teaching the same message to the Nephites that He taught to the people of Israel. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that Jesus Christ's message and His atonement are not for one group of people at one time. They are for everyone, everywhere, from the beginning of the earth to the end. Having the Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ reminds us that He is mindful of every one of us.

    No one asks you to believe what we preach is truth just by our word, we tell you, as it says in this scripture from Moroni, to find out the truth FOR YOURSELF:
    “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. ” (Moroni 10:4)

    Why are you so afraid of us? Why do you find it so difficult to acknowledge our Christianity and good works? We do NOT attack your beliefs or religion.

  • Mary McDowell Purpari June 26, 2012 at 10:13 AM

    No, I'm not related to the author of this...uh... misguided rhetoric. I would just like to say a few words on faith and knowledge and a knowledge of the English language. Mr. McDowell quoted professor J.P. Moreland as saying, "faith involves trusting what we have reason to believe is true." I am of the mind that is exactly the same thing that he said was incorrect with the Book of Mormon. Had he read a little further (if he read at all) he would have seen in Alma 32:21 a definition of the word "faith" which coincides almost exactly with what Professor Moreland had to say: "...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."
    As a fellow author and writer, I would like to chide Mr. McDowell for his lack of in-depth research, which is requisite for someone who is writing on article on a subject with which he has no first-hand experience. You should be sure of your information before you publish it as truth.
    As Renee said above, a Christian is someone wo believes in Christ and accepts him as their personal Savior, a fundamental belief of the LDS Church.

  • Mark I. Ward June 26, 2012 at 10:17 AM

    There is no burden to serve the living God. The Bible declares that we are to obey the Commandments of God. That is the work we do. Works are the other side of the same coin of grace and faith. That is why James taught faith and works, not faith alone nor works alone. We know that we can not earn our way to heaven and we do accept the grace of Christ, knowing that without Him none can be saved. Perfection comes as we place ourselves into the grace Christ offers as we do his will.

    We do strive to keep the commandments, but we are also taught that we are not expected to do more than we can. We do as best we can and rely upon Christ's grace for what we cannot do.

    As for original sin, we accept that it was taken away through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Therefore we are not punished for Adam's transgression, but only for our own sins that we have committed.

    We believe that we receive no witness until after the trial of our faith. We believe faith is believing in what is not seen but which is true. The archeology of the Americas is still 90% untouched. Whereas the archeology of the old world is extensive. I have yet to hear of the uncovering of battlesites of Aztecs against the Spanish. Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, it is just a lack of evidence because one has not found the right location. Evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity is found within the Book of Mormon itself. I know that Joseph Smith is not the author of the Book of Mormon.

  • Kevin C June 26, 2012 at 10:21 AM

    This is very interesting and reasoncivil interchange between LDS and traditional Christians so I would like to ask a question of the LDS readers. Is it true that your church believes in a progression where a person can become a god and have spirit children perpetually with his wife? I have asked this question of missionaries at me door and not received a straight answer, they seem to not want to address this issue.
    Thank you in advance for your response.

  • Dennis Hibbard June 26, 2012 at 10:22 AM

    If your not all Right your All Wrong
    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

    II John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    To many Lies and One is To many!
    Lucifer the communist the end justifies the means, for the physical and spiritual death of Mankind who is Truly Merciless, persecuted while following a False Doctrine, Falun Gafa, Islam etc. all the while on the Road to Hell!

  • Scorpio June 26, 2012 at 10:23 AM

    There is only one God and one Bible. Mormons are not Christians and anyone who says otherwise perhaps should consult the Reverend Billy or Franklin Graham. The Mormon Church and their bible was done by Joseph Smith, a "so called" prophet.

    I suggest you look at this video which substantiates what I'm saying.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xScMJHcIecw

  • Shawna June 26, 2012 at 10:30 AM

    "Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble?” To me, to be humble means we are teachable and willing to bend our will to God's will. I know many good people, Mormon and non-Mormon, who try to determine what God would have them become and then seek God's help in reaching that noble aim. I am having a hard time seeing where this is a conflict between faith and works; it seems to be an attitude that promotes both faith and good works. Pride is the opposite of this humble attitude.

    I don't feel Brother McDowell's interpretation of Moroni 10:32 is what was really said in this Book of Mormon passage. I don't know one Mormon (or non-Mormon) who has exited this earth life not being deficient in some area. Logic would hold that no one can keep all the commandments or be without a flaw, because none of us are perfect; and we all make mistakes. We all need our Savior, Jesus Christ, who lends us his perfectness, since we will always lack because of our earthly natures which were passed down to us generation to generation from Adam and Eve. "Denying ourselves of ungodliness" is a battle we fight while in this mortal sphere to overcome this nature that we inherited by virtue of being descendants of Adam and Eve. The New Testament and Book of Mormon are filled with examples of this battle and striving to overcome the battle. God lends his grace and we strive...we don't stop trying to improve, but we know it is Jesus's atonement and love for us that will ultimately make up for what we will always lack. God's gift to us for trying is more of His Spirit, which literally changes our motives, desires, etc and gives us the strength to win future battles between our natural man natures and the natures that God lends to us through his Spirit or Holy Ghost. The more we win these battles (ie. keeping the commandments), the more His Spirit is with us to further change our natures, and you can see the spiraling affects of God's grace on us. It is so beautiful! And we don't win all these battles...and that's why we pray for God to forgive our sins as we forgive others their sins, so we can have that Spirit again. Brother McDowell is correct, in my opinion, though about one thing-- "the onus is on us" to accept Jesus, his love, his atonement, and the Spirit which changes us. Only we get in the way of what God has prepared and offered for all of us children of His.

    I guess, ultimately, it doesn't matter if Brother McDowell or others believe I am a Christian or not, (it would be nice if they did), but what matters most is what my Savior, Jesus Christ, thinks of me and my relationship with Him and our Father in Heaven. They know me better than anyone else ever will.

  • David June 26, 2012 at 10:36 AM

    Kevin C,
    Yes, we believe that. Otherwise, what would be the point of our existence? To reach a limit in our progression and then be stunted for endless eternity? Such goes against the very nature of our existence. What would be the point? To me, the prospect of not being able to progress is much of what would cause my soul to feel in hell.
    :)

  • David June 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM

    Thank you, Shawna. That is beautiful.

  • Mary McDowell Purpari June 26, 2012 at 10:43 AM

    When I came back, I simply wanted to mention to Mr. McDowell that I should have added to my original statement that accuracy would help avoid embarrassing situations.
    Now, I would also like to mention to Dennis Hibbard that the Bible also says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
    I agree with Shawna, it doesn't really matter what others think--if we know that we have accepted Christ as our Savior, we are Christians.

  • Shawna June 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM

    As far as lack of archaeology goes...if you seek it, you will find it. It will not be touted in mainstream media nor in institutions who are controlled by powerful people...enough said.

    The example I give below is one example of a remains that exits that is vividly described in the Book of Mormon, You won't get it though until you read the Book of Mormon and where this site fits in with the history in the Book of Mormon.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1025065185024


    Here is a more general site:
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Book-of-Mormon-Archaeology-in-North-America/60236033472

  • Spencer Colvin June 26, 2012 at 11:57 AM

    It's as simple as this: You cannot determine who is Christian or not by your understanding of the bible. Let Mormons decide themselves if they are Christian. Why are so many mainstream Christians thinking they can decide the merit of someone else's Christianity? What a BUNCH OF NONSENSE!! IT'S NOT UP TO YOU!!!

  • Mike June 26, 2012 at 1:18 PM

    Kevin C,
    I am only 20 years old, but I grew up going to the LDS church. I did this up until my first year of seminary at about 15. Yes, I took it but any question I had went unanswered. This left me to wonder and now I am a born again Christian. Growing up I was never taught of eternal progression. I have no idea why because it IS in the Mormon doctorine. This is true for many young people in the LDS faith. Honestly it wasn't until after I became a born again Christian that I heard about eternal progression. My mouth dropped, litterally. I researched it because I couldn't beleive it but it is true. I just don't think they like to talk about it. That's probably why I could never get a straight answer from my seminary teacher on anything and you can't get a straight answer from a missionary. But I have had the chance since to talk to some older folks who have recently come out of the mormon faith and they expressed how prominently this is taught. I'm not sure why I or a lot of my younger peers never heard it. It is no doubt part of their doctorine.

  • Mary McDowell Purpri June 26, 2012 at 1:27 PM

    Scorpio,
    I highly respect Rev. Billy Graham--I sang in one of his revivals many years ago in Los Angeles--but, I'd trust his opinion on the LDS Church about as much a I'd trust his opinion on Quantum Physics; it's only a opinion.

  • Douglas Gwinn June 26, 2012 at 2:01 PM

    I graduated from a college that is very similar to BIOLA, Seattle Pacific University. My experience is that evangelical Christians such as myself have a wide variety of opinions about our LDS friends. It depends on such things as whether we have personally known Mormons and to what extent we have engaged LDS literature. My best friend in the Army was an LDS young lady who was in my platoon. She was being harassed by other soldiers on account of past LDS polygamy practices and other peripheral matters. As an officer, I stepped in and ordered the harassment to stop, which it did. She was so grateful to me and allowed me to get to know her better. We sat down and shared our beliefs many times. She gave me a Book of Mormon and I read it cover to cover. Then D&C and POGP. She invited me to her ward meetings and I attended a few times. I have to say I have known few other kinds of Christian women who were as friendly, a good listener, and so expressive as she was.

    Since then, I have held Mormons close in my heart. I also lived in Utah for over a year and learned a great deal from an evangelical missionary to the Mormons, (former Mormon) Timothy Oliver. He showed me from LDS writings, LDS Scriptures, and especially from a book by a previous LDS president, Spencer Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, that the biggest problem with LDS teachings is not just the things that Sean McDowell says (above) but rather, from this: the LDS doctrine of forgiveness and reconciliation with God doesn't work. How can I say that, you ask? Spencer Kimball points out that Mormons need to stop sinning in order to be qualified for the Celestial Kingdom. You might say, well of course, all Christians ought to stop sinning, that's obvious. But Kimball takes it to an absolute extreme. He takes the words of Jesus from the Gospel of Matthew, "Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" and treats this as the goal of LDS life. For Kimball, to become perfect means to not just stop sinning but that the urge to sin is also removed from the individual. When you ask Kimball, "Who has ever achieved this?" the answer comes back, well somebody probably has but we all must do it. I haven't found a Mormon person yet who can name anybody in this world who has attained this sinless state. (I will continue in the next comment here)

  • Douglas Gwinn June 26, 2012 at 2:02 PM


    I spoke of this to two LDS missionaries who visited me once, and when I asked them, "Have you stopped sinning yet?" they both admitted that they had not. I replied, "When will you stop sinning?" and they seemed to get my point... which is also Kimball's point, that "to try is not good enough." They realized that it cannot be done and both of these missionaries, adept, skilled, and confident though they were, began crying, literally bawling, right there in my living room. I handed them the kleenex. It was a very awkward moment for me to have visitors crying in my living room, and I admit I hurt for them also, and I too almost started crying empathetically. But this was what they needed to understand... the LDS plan of salvation is a dead end. It leads you along and creates tremendous self-confidence, but it is only a human effort.

    If LDS people want to know how evangelical Christians handle the sin-nature, our answer is quite simple.... we confess our sins and sinfulness to God through Christ and trust fully in the blood of Jesus shed on the Cross as washing away our sins. Any confidence in our flesh comes from the evil one. I pray for LDS people that you will find in Jesus Christ, the righteousness that you so desire, and let Him change you by inviting Him into your life and trusting Him completely with your lives. This is what is meant by being born again. Now go and do the right thing... trust fully in Jesus!

  • Allan Erickson June 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM

    Historic Christianity articulated in the Old and New Testaments asserts Christ is divine, not a created being, but rather all powerful, without beginning or end. Extra bibllical 'revelation' as articulated in classical Mormonism claims Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer, that Christ is a created being who achieved godhead via works, as can we all. Two vastly different points of view. Christ claimed deity, not as something earned, but as his eternal nature.

  • MIW June 26, 2012 at 2:20 PM

    "The very belief in eternal progression (that a later day saint can acheive godhood) makes Mormons not Christians."

    Not true, Paul taught that we can be joint-heirs with Christ and the book of revelations teaches similar concepts in the verses which refer to those who overcoming inheriting the rights of God. There were many early Christians who taught that man was able to become gods which meant they believed men would become rulers under Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

    Mormons do not teach we become Gods as the Father is God, but teach that we become part of God's family as joint-heirs with Christ. That we become gods but that we will eternally be less than God the Father, and God the Son. Therefore, Mormons are still Christians even if they beleive along with many of the early Christians that they can by and by become gods at the hands of God.


    "The Bible says there is ONE God. " It also teaches there are other Gods, such as Christ declaring his God and our God, his Father and our Father. If there was but one God, why did Israel so often turn from God Jehovah to worship other Gods?

    "If someone believes that you can in anyway somehow become a god, then you believe that there is more than one God. It's polytheism."

    That is not polytheism. Polytheism is the worship of many Gods, not the aknowledging the existence of lesser gods. Even the early Jews and Israelites believed in other Gods, and it was one of the problems they had. They actually worshipped Gods other than Jehovah.

    You claim that you used to be Mormon and that you know what the Book of Mormon teaches. You claim to know it contradicts the Bible. Funny, I have read the Book of Mormon many many times and I have not found these supposed contradictions. So God has not contradicted his own word. and why do you claim so many years after Christ came? The Book of Mormon was not written late, that is your lack of faith presenting itself again.

    Actually this is taught by Paul when he declares that followers of Jesus Christ are Joint-heirs with Christ. This means he believed on could be a joint god with Jesus Christ who is God! Also check out the messages of Revelation to those who overcome! they too will be as God. Polytheism is the worship of many Gods for example the Greeks and Romans were Polytheist. We worship but God and His son Jesus Christ, no other God is worshipped by Mormons. Secondly, the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Holy Bible at all. I haven't found a contradiction when reading the books together. Eternal progression was taught among early Christians so the LDS are not alone in believing that concept.

  • Clarence Paul Puckett June 26, 2012 at 2:24 PM

    Sean McDowell gets my vote of approval on his article; alot of you must be mormon; raised in it, know nothing else. He only touched lightly on the differences; there are so many differences between us, doctrines, books; you folks are allowing a mixed up so-called prophet mislead you off into an eternity without Christ. My wife and I just voted for Mitt Romney; we love his politics, his family,[beautiful] his morals, [married 43 years, I have been married 54; same lady] but I really had to wrestle with voting, knowing he was in a cult; but the lord after prayer, assured me, he is a poor sinner in need of his grace, and to vote for him, and pray for his family to know the Jesus of the bible; right now; he does not; you cannot embrace their additional books as any kind of authority; and their damnable doctrines, and be a christian; all of you were born in original sin, thanks to Adam/Eve; you will never achieve status of Godhood[men] saint is as good as it gets; and rejoice about it, hell is an extremely hot place, heaven is beautiful, but we are going on a round trip; we are coming back to planet earth to set up his earthly kingdom of 1000 years of peace; born again means; you kneel, and ask Jesus into your heart, out of a sincere, contrite heart; once you are assured of a change in your life, you have met the master; you will no longer need the mormon church, it's religion, falsehood. etc Jesus is all you need; I hope you find him; time is running out.

  • clarence puckett June 26, 2012 at 2:28 PM

    Most of the world is going to hell; Jesus said so; he died for all the world to be saved; but most are not accepting his sacrifice, his word.

  • Mary McDowell Purpari June 26, 2012 at 2:31 PM

    @Douglas Quinn, only one person has attained perfection in this life, and that is our Savior Jesus Christ. Remember, He, too, as the Son of Mary, was human, with all the same attributes that we have, but as the Son of God, he had all of God's attributes. The rest of us, however, can attempt perfection one step at a time. We can take one imperfection and strive to eliminate it or take one weakness and transform it into a strength, thereby perfecting ourselves in that area. Then, we go on to the next imperfection and work on that with all diligence.
    I do trust in Jesus and in His Father, and know that They will assist me in my daily walk to obey their commandments and to seek perfection. That is their promise to all of us.

  • MiW June 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM

    Douglas Gwinn, We are perfected as we take upon us the Yoke of Christ and become perfect only in him. No we are not perfected in ourselves, we must walk with Christ and as we do our best, which is not enough Christs infinite perfection encompasses us and makes us perfect. This is my understanding of perfection in Christ as taught by Moroni 10;32-33. Yes we are to deny all ungodliness but being imperfect humans we cannot, but Christ still covers us for what we are yet unable to accomplish. We as LDS also accept the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, but not all of us have come to understanding. I have long had the trust in Jesus Christ that he washes me and covers me as I carry his yoke with me.

  • Derek Neuhauser June 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM

    @Shawna - Very interesting. Not from a Mormon perspective though. Mounds are found throughout North America and have nothing to do with Nephites or Lamanites. Referencing a mound found in Ohio is quite interesting, because if you know the story of the Book of Mormon,
    you know that the Nephites and Lamanites were supposedly in a running war all the way from South America, and ending in Palmyra, NY. They would not have had time, in the time period the BOM supposedly occurred, to stop and build mounds, in multiple locations scattered as far away as Ohio ... much less anywhere else in the country.

    One of the biggest problems Joseph Smith ran into is when the hundreds of pages of original manuscript were stolen to prove that he could not recreate them, and he had to "fill in" those missing pages. He used verses directly from the King James Bible. Ironically (and to his discredit), he used ERRORS that were in print at that time, and quoted precisely WITH these errors that were later corrected in KJ versions of the Bible. Proof that he was copying almost word for word ... to supplant the pages that were stolen from his original manuscript. He obviously could not, from memory, repeat word for word from his original manuscript as there were no "Plates" to translate from. This was an excellent opportunity to prove he actually was translating. He failed ... miserably.

    There are THOUSANDS of other reasons Mormonism is fake ... including the THOUSANDS of changes of your scriptures since Joseph Smith's time. Notably in 1978 when they allowed blacks to get the priesthood, against all prior Prophets declarations. And again in 1990 when they took out the "Death Oaths" they had stolen from the Masonic ceremonies. Just two examples. If you do research you can find thousands more, and they are all documented.

  • Scott T. June 26, 2012 at 3:06 PM

    Derek, just for the record, there were blacks that had the Priesthood in the 1800's-an example being the Manning family from Maryland , so that just shows your credibility. Have a nice time lying to others.

  • Gregory June 26, 2012 at 3:12 PM

    JESUS is GOD, not satan's brother.

    The bottom line, you need the correct New Testament JESUS to be saved.


    What light are you abiding in? Joseph Smith's repackaged Freemasonry? I hope not.

    or

    Whoever your guru.....Billy Graham, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or the Pope.......their not able to atone for your mistakes....sorry

  • Douglas Gwinn June 26, 2012 at 3:34 PM

    MiW.... Thanks for responding... You virtually stated Biblical evangelical Christian doctrine when you said that Mormons desire to "become perfect only in Him (Christ)" and "not perfected in ourselves." But then you switched back to LDS teaching even in the same sentence by saying that we need to "do our best" and that "Christ still covers us for what we are yet unable to accomplish." Thus you have a mixture of human effort and divine help for the "perfection" that is required. The Bible teaches (rather) in Colossians 2:10 that we are "complete in Him (Christ)." This completeness is ALL of Christ and nothing coming from us, as Paul states so well in Philippians 3:9, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Righteousness, perfection, completeness, being acceptable to God the Father (justification) is not a work of man, but rather a work of God through faith. Spencer Kimball said that it is not enough to "do our best" that we have to do better than our best, we have to cease sinning. He says that God cannot make up for what the sinner fails to accomplish, thus (actually) contradicting himself because (like you) he earlier states that Jesus sort of makes up the difference in the atonement. As the Kimball reasoning goes, we do our best, and if we fall short, then Jesus takes up the slack. That concept is nowhere found in the Bible. Rather, Jesus did it all. His sacrifice was complete and lacked nothing for everyone who believes. But for those who think they can add something to the work of Christ in His atonement, the Bible says that's impossible, e.g., Romans 4:5: "But to him who does not work, but trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Do you see who Christ justifies? He doesn't justify those who "try their best" but rather he justifies the sinner and cleanses us from all unrighteousness when we confess our sin.

    The Bible says that "All our (human efforts) righteousness is as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

    Jesus will never make up for a man's shortcomings... but rather He died to take away our sin, as far as the east is from the west. Do you see the difference between what you are saying and what I'm showing you from the Bible my friend?

  • Miles Elder June 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM

    Sean, I agree with your arguments. However, we Christians have to rally around Mitt Romney. Here's our only hope this year. I'm not too crazy about a Mormon president myself, but he's so much better than what we have right now. America can't take four more years of Barack Obama.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:16 PM

    The Book of Mormon is actually silent on critical Mormon theology
    teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon or Bible.
    1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
    2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
    3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
    4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
    5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
    6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
    7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
    8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
    9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
    10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
    11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
    12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
    13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
    14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
    15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
    16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
    17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
    18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
    19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
    20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
    21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:22 PM

    Christian believe the Bible Hebews 1:1 that say's Jesus is our Prophet
    Christians also Believe Jesus is our Apostle and Priest Hebrews 3:1
    Mormons have substituted Jesus for sinfull depraved men that say this:

    1) "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.(Bruce R. McConkie. Mormon Doctrine [1958], 130.)

    2) "I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

    3) "Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp

    4) "You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336).

    5) "The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome. . . The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. . .There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvemant, Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)

    6) "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Can might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290).

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:29 PM

    The Book Of Mormon seems to agree with Creedal Christian and teaches the Trinity " Within the nature of the One God, there are three separate and distinct persons"

    Charles W Penrose trying to explain
    Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose
    Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:
    General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

    Nephi 31:
    21And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:34 PM

    Devin Holbrook
    Task Force Lightning Horse
    US Army
    KAF, Afghanistan
    BLACKJACKS!

    Says it's wrong to attack other religions, yet Mormons do just that

    "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world".
    - Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270.

    "...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
    - Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60.

    "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent".
    - Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255

    "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon".
    - George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324.

    "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness."
    - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73.

  • Jared Garfield June 26, 2012 at 4:34 PM

    In college most of us learned about critical thinking, and about how to find obvious bias and slant in something when evaluating it's accuracy or validity. This article is so clearly inaccurate, that it shows that the author started with the intent to search to find data to back up their pre-conceived notions, as opposed to searching to find out what the Mormon faith truly believes.

    I see much in the area I live in among professed Christians, who commit all kinds of sins condemned by the Bible, such as fornication, adultry, stealing, lying etc and then go to Church every week to attend a class on how 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses etc are not Christian. In these instances I ask myself, "Are Christians Christians?"

    If the author of this paid advertisement understood the roots of the Apostacy after Christ's 12 Apostles were martyred and the resulting loss of authority found with the apostles, authority given by Christ, then they would be asking themselves, where is the Church that Christ established, that meets the requirements of the New Testament. Then they would have to go through the Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisitions, the Witch Trials of Europe and America, the St. Bartholemew's Massacre, the dozens of Saints burned at the stake and executed (like Tyndall for publishing the Bible in English), to ask themselves whether Christ's Church continued after his death? Then they should ask whether the Protestant Reformation brought it back somehow? Did taking something that clearly was of man and not of God, and having other men try to right the ship and fix the doctrines without heavenly messengers, without authority from God, did that work? James in the New Testament said, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism." Which of the 38,000 Christian Sects is the right one?

    www.yeshallknow.com

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:43 PM

    Hebrews 3
    1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

    Since we Have Jesus as our Priest Prophet and Apostle that we can talk to every day why have depraved vile men like this leading anyone ?

    8) "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race." (Tenth LDS President, Joseph Fielding Smith The Way to Perfection, p.101.)

    9) "Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. a Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. but think of the mercy of god to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

    Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood... This Negro, who in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincerer faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessing of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory. (Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, An address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College level; Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.)

    10) "We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly.... We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence." (Ernest Wilkinson, president of Brigham Young University, in a 1965 lecture to the BYU student body, titled: "Make Honor your Standard."

  • Mary Soelberg June 26, 2012 at 4:47 PM

    Forrest Phelps-Cook mentioned Moroni 10:4 or what I refer to as "the Moroni challenge". I read it and took that challenge. As promised, I received an irrefutable answer to my sincere prayer. The Book of Moron is true!. While I continue to read, research and seek answers to questions, that alone allows me to have "faith" that The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints is the true church.

    Amazing, isn't it, that a "cult" such as ours could produce such an outstanding person like Mitt Romney. Atleast we can agree that he is the only acceptable choice for president at this time.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 4:54 PM

    If the Book of Mormon is true why does it disagree with Mormonism ?

    http://www.ondoctrine.com/1mormo36.htm

    Why doesn’t the BOM mention most of LDS teachings?
    Like baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, three degrees of glory, that God the Father was a man, plurality of gods, tempory hell, pre-existence of spirits, eternal progression, eternal intelligence, priesthood needed to act for god, plural marriage, polygamy, word of wisdom, secret handshakes etc.

    Why does it teach only One God exists when Joseph Smith Jr said

    Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
    "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

    God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

    2 Nephi 9:20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

    Notice how the Book of Mormon teaches God is Omniscience, yet Wilford Woodruff and Mormon blind guides say he's not

  • Mike June 26, 2012 at 5:04 PM

    Clarence Paul Puckett ,
    Well said. You made me feel better after reading a lot of these comments :) I'm celebrating a little because in a few days it will have been three years since I gave my life for Jesus and asked him into my heart. I thought I knew him before, but I didn't. No way. I'm born again. Jesus is all I will ever need. Praise him! :)

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 5:05 PM

    Mormons need an Apostle they can trust, Jesus

    Hebrews 3
    1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    In the Journal of Wandle Mace the following is recorded: "Joseph told them to go to Kirtland, and cleanse and purify a certain room in the Temple, that they must kill a lamb and offer a sacrifice unto the Lord which should prepare them to ordain Willard Richards a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" ("Journal of Wandle Mace," p. 32, microfilmed copy at Brigham Young University Library).

    Joseph Fielding Smith said that "the law of sacrifice will have to be restored.... Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.94).

    W. Cleon Skousen, a former BYU professor, wrote:

    Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such.... But since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate.... 'He would cease to be God.' Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 5:23 PM

    If Jesus was a Mormon Apostle, he wouldn't teach not to have personal relationship with him or not to worship him

    Our Relationship with the Lord
    BRUCE R. MCCONKIE
    Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.

    We worship the Father and him only and no one else.
    We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

    Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.
    After the Firstborn of the Father, while yet a spirit being, had gained power and
    intelligence that made him like unto God; after he had become, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number; after he had reigned on the throne of eternal power as the Lord Omnipotent--after all this he yet had to gain a mortal and then an immortal body.

    http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

  • Mike June 26, 2012 at 5:29 PM

    Ivanhoe,
    You make some great points. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind." Luke 10:27
    One aspect I think the LDS are missing is loving your savior with all your mind. When I was LDS I felt like I could never ask questions. When I did get answers they didn't make sense and would contridict with either the Bible or other Mormon teaching. Now, during Bible study or even church I feel like I can ask questions. I get simple, straightforward answeres.
    Plus another thing that is bothering me is when born again Christians ask about the mormon belief of eternal progession. Even in these comments I have seen 2 different answers to that question in the LDS perspective.

  • Rex June 26, 2012 at 5:47 PM

    Great job!

    That is only the beginning of many more things that are different in Mormon teachings. It's true that Mormons and Christians have a different definition of grace, sin and many other things. It's funny older Mormons would be angry if they were called Christians. Somewhere in history Mormons now call themselves Christians. Of course, if the prophet speaks they have to accept no matter the prophets are wrong. They believe they will be blessed for following a lie without testing them.

    Just like you said, "although Christians and Mormons use the same words such as grace, faith, God and sin, they mean very different things by them."

    Mormons want to use the same word that they are Christian but they have a very different mean of what a Christian is. Therefore, they are not Christians. They need to understand what Christian really means before they can call themselves Christians. This was warned years ago by Paul's writings in:

    2 Timothy 4:3 (NCV) because the time will come when people will not listen to the true teaching but will find many more teachers who please them by saying the things they want to hear.

    And, it's the Mormons that want to listen to what they want to hear rather than listen to the Truth and Grace of God.

    Rex

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 5:54 PM

    Yes Mike Loving your enemies is what Jesus taught, Mormons have different prepective

    And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy; But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you (3 Nephi 12:43-44).

    In the Bible, Romans 12:14, we are counseled: "Bless them which persecute you; bless, and curse not."

    In spite of these clear teachings in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith gave a revelation which sanctioned the cursing of ones enemies:

    And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25).

    Notice how Book of Mormon disagrees with Doctrine and Covenants, hyperlink tells us how far Mormons go on cursing their enemies.


    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k7kAbHgOyo

  • Mike June 26, 2012 at 6:22 PM

    Much of my family is LDS. I pray for them always. I love the LDS people. I just want them to know the Jesus that I know because there is nothing greater.

  • Edward Antoine June 26, 2012 at 6:24 PM

    Can any of you guys explain to me the whole thing about black people supposedly being an inferior race? Is this a doctrinal truth taught by the Mormon church or some lie that someone made up? I know that there are black people that support the LDS as well as many hispanics and pacific islanders. Are they considered inferior too? I would like to know if it at all is true or had been taught at any point in time. Thank you.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 6:31 PM

    Yes Mike, Prayer for your family is right, it would have to be Jesus that opens their eyes to the Glorious Gospel hid from them by the god of this world . I feel bad for you.


    2 Corinthians 4
    1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
    2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

  • Mike June 26, 2012 at 6:40 PM

    Thank you Ivanhoe,
    God bless you and your family.

  • Mary McDowell Purpari June 26, 2012 at 7:01 PM

    Edward Antoine,
    At one time, blacks were not given the priesthood, not because they were considered an inferior race, but because the time had not yet come for them to receive it; I'm not sure of the exact reason. I do know that at the time of Joseph Smith, there were blacks that held the priesthood. There are many blacks in the Church, and they receive exactly the same blessings as anyone else in the Church. in my last branch, I was actually one of two white women and one man. All of the other members were black, including our branch president. No one has ever been considered inferior to anyone else. Latin Americans and Pacific Islanders have always received the priesthood. I hope this helps you.

  • Michael June 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM

    Ivanhoe,
    You showed everything you believed in! Don't you get it?
    You Have to Have Fathers Holy Priesthood to have this knowledge, right
    Do you know of any other Christian Church that profess to have His Holy Priesthood
    after the order of Melchizedek? There is none that I can think of.
    Can you?
    My Dear Brother, You really need to think about all that information that you gather
    and remember who relay it to us. It was Men of God that belong to the Order of
    Melchizedek, the same order that Christ is a member of, his Apostles, and I am I order of
    The Melchizedek Priesthood of God our Father, In which we are to Act on behalf of him,to carry at his will and to prepare this world for the second coming of OUR OLDEST BROTHER AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST! Don't you know that??????

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM

    Mormonism and Black Skin
    “But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332

    There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66;
    Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218;

  • Neal Pirolo June 26, 2012 at 8:01 PM

    WOW! I agree and disagree with so much that has been written in these comments, it is impossible to address all of my thoughts. I will limit myself to three:
    1) I agree that Sean wrote a very poor article, even embarrassingly so under the banner of BIOLA. For BIOLA's credibility, I agree that it should be retracted!
    2) I agree that the basic doctrines of Mormonism are quite distinct from the basic doctrines of most (if not all) Christian denominations. I believe Ivanhoe did a good, researched and documented job of that in his above comments.
    3) I agree that at this juncture in the history of our country that our only choice for our next president has to be Mitt Romney!

  • v a h June 26, 2012 at 8:09 PM

    If people would truly read and study the King James Bible and then study and read The Book Of Morman they could say if (Mormans) are Christians-they would know.....after all The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint is the churche's real name!!!!

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

    Michael would be satisfied with a sinfull man as priest, the Bible says only Jesus holds the Melchizedek Priesthood no where in the Bible can you find anyone holding that office other than Melchizedek, who was Jesus

    Hebews 7:12-14 And when God sends a new kind of priest, his law must be changed to permit it. As we all know, Christ did not belong to the priest-tribe of Levi, but came from the tribe of Judah, which had not been chosen for priesthood; Moses had never given them that work.
    15 So we can plainly see that God’s method changed, for Christ, the new High Priest who came with the rank of Melchizedek,
    16did not become a priest by meeting the old requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but on the basis of power flowing from a life that cannot end.
    17 And the psalmist points this out when he says of Christ, “You are a priest forever with the rank of Melchizedek.”
    18 Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
    19 It never made anyone really right with God. But now we have a far better hope, for Christ makes us acceptable to God, and now we may draw near to him.
    20 God took an oath that Christ would always be a Priest,
    21 although he never said that of other priests. Only to Christ he said, “The Lord has sworn and will never change his mind: You are a Priest forever, with the rank of Melchizedek.”
    22 Because of God’s oath, Christ can guarantee forever the success of this new and better arrangement.
    23 Under the old arrangement there had to be many priests so that when the older ones died off, the system could still be carried on by others who took their places.
    24 But Jesus lives forever and continues to be a Priest so that no one else is needed.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 8:18 PM

    Public Relation message of Mormonism is designed to attract the general public by offering "everlasting happiness and fulfillment." Then the missionaries are sent to ask, "do you want to know more about the gospel of Jesus Christ?" But just as the iceberg is about 10% visible to the eye, so the Mormon missionary lessons represent only a small, visible part of Mormon doctrine.
    The missionary stratagem of withholding information is exposed by quoting page 9 of the "stake mission handbook" published by the Mormons:
    "The standard missionary discussions, when they are taught by the spirit, lead investigators carefully and systematically to a knowledge of these truths. Other portions of the gospel should generally be left to instruction and study after baptism. The Lord has instructed ,'And of tenets thou shall not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea , even the Holy Ghost' ( Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 )
    It is evident that Mormon authorities are commanding an inadequate representation of Mormonism by intentional concealment of their beliefs. this designed omission acts as a virtual fraud on the individual, manipulating then into the waters of baptism and membership into Mormonism. Mormon authorities feel justified in this deception because they believe they are "legal administrators" of the "only true church on the face of the earth" and, therefore, know what is best for all mankind.
    After baptism, new members are scheduled into investigators' Sunday School class where the lessions are carefully presented. In this "Intial Indoctrination" phase they are taken through the "gospel Principle Manual." Mormon doctrine is explained in Christian-sounding words and phrases; differences in perspective are introduced gradually.

  • Martha June 26, 2012 at 8:23 PM

    Any religion that attempts to make Jesus Christ and Lucifer brothers has serious issues. And BTW, have you ever noticed that the angel Moroni is simply a moron with an "i" misplaced. It should read imoron. The devil was simply making a mockery of Joseph Smith. Do the research. His whole family was into evil, pagan practices and rituals. A whole religion founded on the psycho-babble of a seriously bi-polar individual, who I'm quite certain was demon possessed.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM

    Besides Black people Mormons didn't care for Mexicans either

    “Not only was Cain called to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures.... they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.”

    - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101, 1935; online at http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon132.html and http://www.helpingmormons.org/Lectures.htm

    “Even before the migration to Mexico had begun, Apostle Brigham Young, Jr. had warned members of the Church living in Arizona ‘that the blood of Cain was more predominant in these Mexicans than that of Israel.’ For this reason he ‘condemned the mixing’ of Mormons with ‘outsiders.’”
    B. Carmon Hardy, “Cultural ‘Encystment’ as a Cause of the Exodus from Mexico in 1912,” Pacific Historical Review, v. 34, 1965, p. 447

  • larrycarnell June 26, 2012 at 8:54 PM

    It's amazing when one christian group will attack another group, which by all accounts strives to be Christlike in their action and service to others. More surprisingly is the use of scripture to discredit another faith.

    There are also many discrepancies in the Bible and scriptures that seem to contradict each other which some non-christians use against the Bible and it's teachings. I find it amazing that one Christian group claims to be the "TRUE" christian group... when in Biblical times there were several groups that followed Christ's teaching... They were all labeled Christians but with additional adjectives. Many faiths today attacking the Mormon faith are themselves traced back to the teachings and interpretations of single individuals - such as Martin Luther - who himself, felt that the Catholic Church had departed from their original teaching that were founded under Emperor Costantine - who was also NOT a prophet but a man who selected what "copies" of writings would be combined to create the Bible.

    You have to admire any church who strives to adhere to Christ-like attributes which Mormons absolutely do - reflected in higher tithing rates, higher service rates, no paid ministry, debt free churches, less crime, less divorce, and a host of other attributes... Maybe we could all benefit from their examples! Rather than debating doctrine - maybe we should look at the lives of one's members.

    By the way - Don't try to redefine who is a Christian - A Christian is simply an individual who believes in Christ and strives to live a Christ-Like life. The second part is the most important. The Devil believes in Christ - but is not a Christian. ALL of the other so-called requirements are simply men trying to add labels and discriminate against certain groups to make themselves more pious.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 9:22 PM

    sounds like larrycarnell knows little about the LDS when he says no paid ministry when they have the highest paid ministry with opulent and lavish life styles

    the LDS Church provides them a full salary and often lavish living expenses. Those who rise to the rank of Apostle must sell any business they own and renounce any board of directors for companies that are not directly own by the LDS Church (Hinckley 1996). Generally those who reach Apostle sell their businesses and hand the money over to the LDS Church.

    In 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the range of $60 to $80 thousand a year for living expenses, excluding benefits. This does not include any money received by business ventures or sitting on the board of directors for other companies. Most all General Authorities of the LDS Church are wealthy businessmen; most have companies whose income exceeds a million dollars a year. Most General Authorities have bank account balances in the six digit figure. In addition to the modest salary, the Prophet and his Apostles are given living arrangments. Thomas S. Monson lives in a 24000+ square foot condo estimated at a value of $2.8 million. The Prophet and his Apostles all have 24hr limo service provided by private drivers. The Prophet has 24hr "secret service" bodyguards who protect him anywhere he goes.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM

    Brigham Young, in whose memory the Brigham Young University, which now hosts Jake Obetsebi- Lamptey's daughter, was named, was the most vocal in the campaign against blacks.

    "You see some classes of the human family that are black are uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, and seemingly without the blessing of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.. Cain slew his brother.. And the Lord put a mark on him, which is a flat nose and a black skin.

    "Shall I tell you the law of the God in regard to the African race? If the white who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

    John Taylor, the third prophet of the Latter Day Saints also explained how the blacks survived the flood - "After the flood, we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God."

    Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth prophet of the Church of the Mormon Church wrote:

    "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures."

    Fielding further said: "Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the gospel. These are the descendants of Cain."

    "Moreover" Fielding continued, "they shall have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning. ..We will also hope that blessings may eventually be given our Negro Brethren, for they are our Brethren-children of God-Not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness."

  • aaron June 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM

    The fundamental issue with Sean's article is that he attempted the impossible. He addressed in brevity what is a topic that is more appropriately addressed exhaustively. (I have a sneaking suspicion he knew this, however - hoping to start a dialogue, in which case - mission accomplished) The reality of what he said is, however, at its core, correct. I have been through the mormon missionary talks. I have chatted time and time and again with the missionaries online and at my door. At the end of the day, Mormons believe they can be "good enough" to stand favorably with God. They believe that Grace is a secondary, "wrap up the loose ends" kind of thing. "Grace is applied AFTER everything I can do." Historical Christian doctrine STARTS with the Grace of God, given BY God, through the work of Jesus Christ, and applied by the Spirit. Mormon doctrine begins with believing in the mormon church, and Jesus (arguably a different Jesus, but lets leave that alone for the time being...) but salvation relies primarily on the goodness of the person. THESE TWO VIEWS ARE COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE. Salvation is either a work initiated and sustained by the person, or initiated and sustained by God. (btw, for those keeping score, the second is the biblical version, the first is mormonism)

    I have many mormon friends who are depending on their goodness to get them into heaven. Salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast." We are to boast in one thing...the cross of Jesus Christ, perpetuated by my sin and atoned for by the spotless lamb, come to "save His people from their sin."


  • Bob June 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM

    Great discussion...thanks to all participants! Basic issues for me are the lack of historicity to the Book of Mormon and the bizarre behavior of the Mormon leadership throughout their history. I am sorely troubled by Romney's affiliation with this deceitful cult.
    Having said that, I would be inclined to think that many Mormon's will spend eternity with Jesus...

  • SUPERMAN June 26, 2012 at 10:21 PM

    It's always the weird kind of so-called Christians that put up these kinds of bigoted things about Mormons. If anti-mormons were seen in the same way as anti-Semites, or anti-Muslims, or any other dedicated stereotyper, people wouldn't listen to these trolls. Put on a movie, everyone, take a walk. These guys are telling all sorts of lies about mormons. I know a several, and they are happy, healthy, uncommonly good-looking, hilarious, level-headed, intelligent, cool, and genuinely spiritual people. They don't feel all murky like the weird haters among the comments above do. And they straight up love black people– several of the mormons that I know are black, and would love to set these bigots straight (check this blog: http://www.sistasinzion.com/2012/03/what-bott-black-mormons.html ). Check an antimormon's references if you want to see their voice drop– it's all from money-making antimormon websites, or misconstrued to make people think they're on to something. That's what's unfair about bigots– people believe them, because they think there must be some good reason why they feel so strongly about something. But bigots don't have a good reason. They just have a screw loose. Props to everyone defending the good, giving, LDS people– ignore the trolls and talk amongst yourselves. Peace, y'all.

  • David Bartos June 26, 2012 at 10:33 PM

    If Mormons truly believe in Jesus than they must release themselves from the law. Christians believe that by Faith alone we receive His free gift of Grace for salvation. We can not have grace and works, it's impossible. It would mean that Christ came in vain as Paul stated. Faith without works (love) is dead. Works do not account for our salvation otherwise Grace would not be grace. It's simple.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 10:34 PM

    http://jod.mrm.org/1 is the link that can be check out for Journal of Discourses if you want to check sourses

    “The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)

    “Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)

    “It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)

    “We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the Journal of Discourses, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.” (Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 15.)

    "I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
    "The Journal of Discourses is A VEHICLE OF DOCTRINE, counsel, and instruction to ALL people, but especially to the Saints. It follows then, then, [sic] that each successive volume is MORE AND MORE VALUABLE as the Church increases in numbers and importance in the earth." Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. iii (1867)

  • SUPERMAN June 26, 2012 at 10:35 PM

    The Church and Race: All Are Alike Unto God: The gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone. The Book of Mormon states, “black and white, bond and free, male and female; … all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33). This is the Church’s official teaching. –from the 'Sistas in Zion' blog, owned and operated by two awesome black LDS ladies.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 10:39 PM

    More anti-Christian remarks from Mormon leaders

    "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God".
    - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171.

    "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."
    - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176.

    "Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born....You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."
    - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89.

    "The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called".
    - Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196

    "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance".
    - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:172.

  • SUPERMAN June 26, 2012 at 10:45 PM

    The Journal of Discourses has never been considered church doctrine, by the way. It would have to be officially canonized as such, and it has not– likely for the kinds of personal remarks that some bigot will throw around in order to lie about mormons. But research goes beyond getting references.

    The official doctrine of the church, on the subject of race, is: "The Church unequivocally condemns racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church. In 2006, then Church president Gordon B. Hinckley declared that “no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.”

    Recently, the Church has also made the following statement on this subject: “The origins of priesthood availability are not entirely clear. Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications. These previous personal statements do not represent Church doctrine.”

    And so it is that there are even some LDS people who are confused about racism, being imperfect people. But I know many LDS people, and they are not racist. They would be creeped out by a racist person, and would have nothing to do with them. Now I've got to go, I've got a life.

  • Aaron June 26, 2012 at 11:15 PM

    I think the race discussion here will always be unfruitful. We could go for a thousand pages, and never really solve this issue. It is confusing currently, and is historically difficult to defend, or even understand. Not only that, but it is non-salvific in nature, so it will be completely useless. The bigger issue (and the primary one in the initial post) is that the Mormon "gospel" is fundamentally flawed and is aberrant theology. It is a lie from Satan that you are "good enough" - Mormons reject the doctrine of original sin. They consistently take scripture out of context to prove their point, create major doctrines out of miscontextualized scriptures (thinking of baptism of the dead - a singular reference which CLEARLY condemns it as a pagan practice) and builds temples to glorify their belief that they can work their way to God. Jesus is the only one who is worthy, by the letter of the law. Every other person EVER is completely and utterly unable to stand before a holy God, except by Faith in Jesus Christ. HE is the way. I bring filthy rags, He brings robes of righteousness. He took my sin, I take his righteousness. In Mormonism, I bring my own self-righteousness, and the delusion that "i'm doing my best, he has to accept that...doesn't he...?"

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 11:19 PM

    Doctrine and Covanents 19;31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."

    commands a Mormon to not talk about the Doctrines of Mormonism until they are fully brainwashed into believing teaching like this

    As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.
    Author: Lorenzo Snow
    Source: Gospel Through The Ages
    Chapter: 43
    Page: 105

    God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

    "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... …I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you... (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307,

  • Aaron June 26, 2012 at 11:27 PM

    Larry...this isn't a "who's the nicest guy" contest. This is a spiritual debate which holds in the balance the eternal destiny of people. The idea that we should, as you say, "Rather than debating doctrine - maybe we should look at the lives of one's members." Since when has thinking and debate become a bad thing. I'm not saying I hate mormons, or that they are mean, or stupid. I'm saying that in light of what the Bible teaches about obtaining salvation, they are WRONG! I'm not attacking their character. I get so annoyed in the contemporary intolerance for thinking and debating. As for your comment, "By the way - Don't try to redefine who is a Christian - A Christian is simply an individual who believes in Christ and strives to live a Christ-Like life." This is a misconstrued attempt at theological reductionism. We are saved by Grace, through Faith, and NOT OF WORKS.

    Don't shut down theological debate. Its is a wonderful part of the human experience on one hand, and a necessary part of spiritual reflection and expression on the other.

  • Mitzi June 26, 2012 at 11:29 PM

    So,how can Mormons be Christian when Joseph Smith himself said that Christians were wrong, an abomination, and their professors corrupt? Also, Mormon theology and Christian theology differ radically. We believe Jesus is the one and only... God. (Jesus says“I and the Father are one” John 10:38, 17:11,21 Jesus says“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” John 14:11 In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. John 1:2 The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth. John 1:14) We do not believe that Jesus has any relation to Satan. How belittling to Jesus that is! We believe in ONE god. We believe in Monotheism not polytheism. ("Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10) We believe that God, the father, does not have a human body to make spirit babies with.(Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:6) We believe we are God's creation and came down through Adam and Eve. We do not believe that God had sex with a Goddess wife and physically made us. We become God's children when we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We believe in saved by Grace, not works! (For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8

  • Peggy June 26, 2012 at 11:30 PM

    I don't understand why Mormons today can say some of these things when their "founding fathers of faith" like Brigham Young said such terrible things. The Bible's truth is neverchanging. I can walk by what Jesus said 2,000 years ago. This hasn't changed. I don't understand their belief that God gave a man a NEW testiment of Jesus Christ, which is vastly different from any previous Christian teaching and from what Jesus said. An example is marriage in heaven. Jesus comes right out and says that there is no marriage in heaven. How much clearer can you get? I understand the want for that. If I could be married forever, awesome! But the Bible does NOT teach that. Another aspect that hasn't been touched on is that of poligamy. I realize that the LDS today disagree with this, but your prophet Joseph Smith did this! Why disagree? The FLDS seem to have a better grasp on what their doctorine originally teachers. I'm not accusing any LDS person of racism. In fact, the LDS people are some of the nicest people I've ever met. I in no way have a problem with them. It just boggles me that they can continue to believe these things when everything contridicts eachother. I want an unchanging faith, that lead by Jesus of the new testiment. That is something I can trust and love with all my heart, soul, strength and mind.

  • Mitzi June 26, 2012 at 11:32 PM

    Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both practiced polygamy. Do you think a true prophet of God would be practicing, and promoting, an activity that God said was wrong and a sin?!! God said it should be one man, to one woman, in a union of marriage. There were never prophets in the bible that practiced polygamy. Also to be a true prophet everything they state must be accurate 100% of the time. Joseph Smith stated that there would be men found living on the moon, dressed like quakers, and eight feet tall. Sorry Jo, we have been to the moon and there is no life there! You're a FRAUD! Not to mention that DNA has already proved the Book of Mormon wrong.

    Mormonism has a rotten core that is wrapped up in a pretty candy sugar coated shell. You can't throw pieces of the holy bible in with man made up stuff and then spit out doctrine that goes completely against God. That is like throwing a couple diamonds in with a bunch of cut glass and tying to call it all diamonds....The founder Joseph Smith was into magic and freemasonry. He translated the Book of Mormon with a "magical" seer stone and a hat. There are nine different accounts of his encounter with God and Jesus. The original book of mormon stated that dark skinned people were bad and a curse. The BOM has been changed approx 4,000 times.

    The devil has deceived mormons into believing in a false gospel and the wrong God. My God is ALPHA and OMEGA and there will be no others God before or after him. My God did not come from the planet Kolob, where he was once Adam, and before Adam was Michael the archangel, and was able to earn his way to Godhood, therefore he came to this planet and be our God- Way to go LDS for undermining what God's word says about himself. You have the same mentality as the devil, wanting to become God, and are deceived just like Adam and Eve were, when they bought into the lie that they too could become all knowing and like God if eating the fruit....Why don't you put a few more pentagrams on your temple and make some more pentagram necklaces and earrings to sell in the Walmart LDS accessory section. This is all straight from the devil but made to look very pretty on the outside...You need to stop and think about how much your religion's teachings contradicts and makes no sense. That burning sensation you get in your bosom when you pray is not from God! Anyone that denies Jesus as God has the anti-Christ spirit. I will not be voting for Obama or Romney. They are both two evils....What has happened to our country?

  • Mitzi June 26, 2012 at 11:33 PM

    Dear Mormons,

    Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Mark 1:31) Jesus said "It is Finished" right before he died on the cross-There was NO need for another Gospel from him!!!

    “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8-9).

    "But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even SATAN disguises himself as an ANGEL of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." ( 2 Corinthians 11:12-15)

    Sincerely,

    From the one and only God of the Holy Bible

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 11:34 PM

    This great apostacy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now. A short time after the death of the last of the Apostles, the Christian Church, what few of them remained, were persecuted from mountain to mountain, from den to den, from one cave of the earth to another, and from nation to nation until they were entirely exterminated and rooted out of the earth. Well, what was left? An apostate Christianity, a Christianity without revelators, without any voice of God, without any Prophets to unfold the future, without visions, without any communications from the heavens.

    Author: Orson Pratt
    Source: Journal Of Discourses
    Volume: 18


    The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell; (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 189-190)

    'THE GATES OF HELL HAVE PREVAILED...'
    4. It seems that the early Mormon leaders were queuing up to express their adverse opinions of orthodox Christianity. The Mormon apostle, Orson Pratt had this to say: "All other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism, or the Lord's Supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" ("The Seer," p.255) & in his "Pamphlets," (p.112): "THE GATES OF HELL HAVE PREVAILED and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over ALL her Protestant Daughters;...the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes & bishops, together with all her harlot daughters SHALL BE HURLED DOWN TO HELL. ..."

    "Apostle" Orson Pratt stated, with regard to the churches of Christendom (JoD, Vol. 16, pp. 175-6):


    New International Version (©1984)

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

  • Ivanhoe June 26, 2012 at 11:42 PM

    This is what happens if Jesus isn't your Apostle Hebrews 3:1

    On October 6, 1854, Mormon Apostle Orson Hyde stated,

    "How was it with Mary and Martha, and other women that followed him [Jesus]? In old times, and it is common in this day, the women, even as Sarah, called their husbands Lord; the word Lord is tantamount to husband in some languages, master, lord, husband, are about synonymous... When Mary of old came to the sepulchre on the first day of the week, instead of finding Jesus she saw two angels in white, 'And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?' She said unto them,' Because they have taken away my Lord,' or husband, 'and I know not where they have laid him.' And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.' Is there not here manifested the affections of a wife. These words speak the kindred ties and sympathies that are common to that relation of husband and wife" (Journal of Discourses 2:81).

    In that same talk he went on to say:

    "Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses 2:82).

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 12:02 AM

    This right out of LDS records:

    When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden. He is Michael, the archangel, the Ancient Of Days,he is our Father and our God, and the Only God with whom we have to do” (Gen. Conf., Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51, 1854). “Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God (Brigham Young, Journal History of the Church, May 14, 1876) “Adam is our Father and God. HE IS THE GOD OF THE EARTH. So says Brigham Young. Adam is the great archangel of this creation. He is Michael. He is the Ancient of Days. HE IS THE FATHER OF OUR ELDER BROTHER, JESUS CHRIST....” ( Edward Tullidge (quoting Brigham Young), Women of Mormondom, p. 179, 1877)

    This is about as real as Harry Potter. Honestly, this stuff sounds like mythology/scientology/ evolution....Please tell me how was Satan and Jesus are brothers? Since you believe Jesus was just a man, wouldn't that make it so you and I are related to Satan as well? EXCUSE ME,I am not related to Satan. Humans have different spirits than angels. God has a different spirit than angels and humans. They are not interchangeable nor do they evolute at any point in time.

    Unlike the mormon God, the God of the holy bible is not flesh, who makes spirit babies. First off, flesh can't give birth to spirit. (Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.) John 3:6. We were never spirit babies! Jesus was not conceived by fleshly sexual relations- Hence Virgin Mary... Jesus is God! He, as the son, came out of God (only BEGOTTEN son) and has fully the spirit of God. God had to come down, and manifest himself in flesh, and die because only flesh can die, and the wages of sin were death. Also, humans needed a perfect sinless sacrifice for our sins. Only God can be perfect. Jesus did not work his way to Godhood. He was already sinless. We as humans are God's creation that came down through Adam and Eve. We become God's children only when we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior.

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 12:08 AM

    "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) -JOSEPH SMITH.

    DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD? HE BELITTLED JESUS AND ELEVATED HIMSELF!

  • SUPERMAN June 27, 2012 at 12:21 AM

    Ivanhoe, you're not at the Renaissance Fair anymore. I just looked up Doctrine and Covenants 19 ( http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.31?lang=eng ), and it was aimed at and customized for a particular person- Martin Harris- at a particular time, for a particular reason. You surely know this, and yet you purposefully twist it to mean something that it does not, for your own odd purpose. You're probably an ex-mormon disgruntled-employee-type with a crazy axe to grind, am I right?

    But continue, because all you do is demonstrate to these interested people on here, as to how bigots like you lie to nice people by twisting as much as you can to support your remote and non-doctrinal references; points that the Church and it's members are always clarifying- but being ignored on by hate-filled people like you. You just provide a contrast between the kind and funny LDS people on here, and the weirdos and bigots like you and Mitzi– who wants to say that Joseph Smith belittled Jesus (which he didn't), yet writes crazy letters to people as if she's actually God.

    Plus, half of the harmless things that you find so weird about mormon beliefs, that you try to use to make fun of them, are some of the very things that people like about LDS beliefs. I think a lot of that stuff sounds awesome. It's called having an open mind. So keep telling everyone what they believe. You should be getting paid for doing all of this advertising for them– since any publicity is good publicity. People can sort through the parts you're twisting and the parts you're not. It's all good at that point, so keep it up! Let's hear another scrambled up bevy of quotes from a disproven source, and twisted doctrinal references. That's all you've got, and that's all you'll ever have on this.

  • SUPERMAN June 27, 2012 at 12:22 AM

    As for me, I actually personally know many LDS people, and they are awesome. I just read that when Charles Dickens went down to the docks to see the mormons leaving England, back in the day, he had been misled by people by you into thinking that the mormons were going to be "riffraff". But he wrote later that he was surprise to find them to be "the pick and flower of England". This came from the person who might be the most talented and intelligent english writer of all time.

    Also, Leo Tolstoy was a huge fan of Joseph Smith, saying of the Church: "The Mormon people teach the American religion; their principles teach the people not only of Heaven and its attendant glories, but how to live so that their social and economic relations with each other are placed on a sound basis. If the people follow the teachings of this Church, nothing can stop their progress--it will be limitless. There have been great movements started in the past but they have died or been modified before they reached maturity. If Mormonism is able to endure, unmodified, until it reaches the third and fourth generations, it is destined to become the greatest power the world has ever known." So there's arguably the greatest Russian writer as well.

    And here's Heikki Raisanen, the famous Finnish theologian, on Joseph Smith: "Joseph's teachings provide solutions for most, if not all, of the genuine problems and contradictions of the Bible with which scholars have wrestled for generations." Looks like this guy didn't know as much as you, Ivanhoe.

    These men are celebrated artists, philosophers, and high geniuses. Who are you? Every hater on here is a nobody to us. And since you're all just talking to each other now, I'm out. Keep each other warm with all that hot air you're blowing. Peace.

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 12:36 AM

    Superman-

    Truth is hate to those that hate truth-

    The funny thing about that your comment in reference to me is that, in all reality, you're the ones that believe you can become Gods...You have bought into the same lie that Adam&Eve bought into in the Garden of Eden. Satan himself wanted to become God...It is tragic that mormons demonstrate that same mentality. You belittle Jesus Christ when you say he is just some man..JESUS CHRIST IS GOD! You will find out exactly who Jesus Christ is, and has always been, at the Great White Throne Judgment. Wake up and see the TRUTH.
    The Truth = ONE God, ONE Lord (Jesus is God) ONE Faith, ONE Gospel and ONE true church (which is the Body of Christ).

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 12:59 AM

    Superman,

    By the way, Christians may be nobody to you, but let me tell you something, Joseph Smith is nobody to me..He is dead and Jesus is alive! I do not need his made up gospel or his permission to get to heaven. It is all through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone. He paid the full price! I don't need to follow some man whom twisted, and distorted God's word, in every possible way. Then to add salt to injury, your founders put the name of Jesus Christ on that man made religion, to make the evil look good. So tragic. Let me tell you, Satan is pretty tricky and he wants to take down as many people as possible. You have been deceived by lies, and manipulation, and your beliefs are going to lead you down the wide path....Read the book of John in the Holy Bible and pray like crazy that the real God reveal himself to you.

    -Everyone has the God given right to worship as they choose. I thank God that it is him, and not a man, who holds us responsible for that decision.

  • TRUTH! June 27, 2012 at 1:04 AM

    This video needs to go viral- This woman is so bold and exposes mormonism for what it really is!
    Please share if you agree :) Thanks.

    http://youtu.be/bboJVqATcS0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bboJVqATcS0&feature=share

  • Rachel June 27, 2012 at 1:15 AM

    Knowing th truth as Mitzi says is the greatest and most wonderful decision of my life. Formally LDS, I have been seeing a lot of people leave the LDS church over the past couple years. I once had a strong faith in the mormon church but all of these little things plus a few huge things chalk up to making no sense. Honestly, the best advice I have heard from a bishop that came out of the mormon church recently, he said "read the Bible as a child." Meaning exactly what he said. Mormons don't read the Bible in the same way that Christians do. Several things are read int he wrong way. For example baptisim for the dead. Mormons read that verse it is mentioned so wrong. All you have to do is read it as a child would read it. Simply. I always used to think mormons read the Bible in the same way as other christians, I mean how could it be different? But it is different. For me it's so hard to explain. I know that I have gained a personal relationship with Jesus and I know that Jesus Christ is God. He came to earth and died for my sins. I am so unworthy, but he loves me the same. I talk with him all hours of the day. Not just my morning and night prayers. It's unformal yet when He answers me, his voice is so full of love.

    Just like was said in the Bible, I'm unworthy to even touch the sandles on Jesus' feet. He is not like us. Now for me, its crazy to think that I used to belong to a faith that believed we are just like Jesus. Jesus did works and so will we so we too can become gods. That's a huge deal. If that were true God would have put that in the Bible. He didn't because there is only ONE god. We are born into sin but because if His sacrifice we can accept him into our hearts and lives and choose to live for Him. That is the only way to be with Him forever. That's one thing we need to choose. Only one. I'm so grateful for that. I am only joining in on this conversation (because I really dont' like to feel like I'm putting down someone else's faith) I'm not, I just really want everyone in this world to KNOW Jesus. Jesus of the new testiment. I know that the whole world will not even come close to knowing Jesus. But I feel if I can make a small impression on someone, just like a Christian did to me years ago. Maybe they can find Christ and be my brother or sister in heaven. Praise God I found Him. I want all the brothers and sisters in Christ possible. I love you guys <3

  • Rachel June 27, 2012 at 1:24 AM

    Thank you so much for sharing that video! I'll have to finnish watching it tomorrow.

  • SuperDave June 27, 2012 at 1:39 AM

    Well said, Josh. It is sad that so many Mormons do not know what their own church teaches. I have studied mormonism for many years, and even find that graduates of BYU know very little about Mormon doctrine and teachings. I was speaking to an ex-mormon the other day who didn't know that the LDS church believes polygamy will be active in the future. He denied it telling me "I was Mormon for 15 years and they don't believe that!" He then went home and spoke with his father who confirmed that I was correct.

    I have spoken directly to Dr. Robert Millet at BYU and have listened to some of his lectures. The LDS church teaches that "Mormons may lie to others for the advancement of their gospel."

    The motivation of LDS members to do good is not out of love for others and Jesus, but to become a god of their own planet, where the sister wives will be eternally pregnant with spirit children. I believe it was Joseph Smith that said, "What man is, God once was. What God is, man may become." How can a finite being become eternal...

  • TRUTH! June 27, 2012 at 2:21 AM

    SuperDave,

    I know what you mean by mormons not knowing anything about what they believe. A girl that has grown up in the mormon church (went for 18 years) claims she knows it's God's one true church. However, I was asking her questions about her religion, and she couldn't answer any of them. Her come backs consisted of things such as- Your stupid, gullible, ugly, dumb, etc....lol...She didn't even know who or where the God of mormonism came from. She told me to ask the missionaries. Then because she didn't know what she was talking about, and did not like how I was using scripture from the bible to show how mormonism contradicts itself and does not make sense, she would then divert the conversation to try to make me look like the bad one.
    Listen up people, truth will always be able to stand up to examination and is worth fighting for! Always use truth and facts (heck,even some logic&common sense would help) instead of stabbing at and insulting someones personal character. There is a difference between questioning the validity of something and stabbing at personal characteristics. But hey, I suppose if mormons don't have any truth, facts, or logic for that matter, the only way to fight back is to personally insult the examiner, and try to make them feel bad and guilty, like they are the ones in the wrong. It's like the ultimate manipulation to go along with all the lies and deceit. Mormons,take off the rose colored shades. Things may appear to be in a pretty, sugar coated wrapping, but the insides are rotten.

    "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your MIND." Luke 10:27

  • Angel June 27, 2012 at 4:51 AM

    This article was meant to confuse and deceive. Truth ALWAYS enlightens. Many things are brought up in the comments that are taken out of context and used to further the deception of the article. I immediately knew where this article was going when I read the title. How will good people ever be able to band together and straighten out the country and world we live in if we are busy bickering about such trivial things as whether or not we are each Christian? It is just silly! We have got to stop this nonsensical bickering and good people MUST join together and fight against the REAL problems in our society! How the devil must laugh when we ignore the bigger picture and quarrel about who is and who isn't a Christian. Followers of Christ can't even get along with EACH OTHER?

  • Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 5:35 AM

    I think that the title "Are Mormons Christians" Should really be titled Are Christians really Christians? To be a Christian you need to believe in the true Christ. The Christ that was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones. See Matt. 23:27 A spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. One that ate with his apostles, See Luke Chapter 24 where it says Christ on the road to Emmaus appeared with a body of flesh and bones, where he eats food and testifies of his divinity. To get to the "world Christian", Christ would have had to shed this resurrected body that he picked up after three days of being dead to become a God without body, parts or passion as believed by "World Christians". You can't be a Christian if you are worshiping the wrong God.
    God the father has a resurrected and glorified body of flesh and bones, Christ, the son, has a glorified body of flesh and bones. The Holy Ghost if a personage of spirit. They are three distinct individuals, one in purpose and unity.

  • Adam Young June 27, 2012 at 5:43 AM

    Religion..... hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    My God can beat up you're God! Seriously people, live and let live. If there is a God, I am sure he is far to busy to care about what we call him.

  • Fr. Marc Solomon June 27, 2012 at 7:20 AM

    Adam,

    Ignorance is not bliss. Science has proved the existence of God the Creator by discovering the complexity of the human eye. Only a super-intelligent Being could design eyes since there can be no coincidence involved is such a complex design that works so well with light to give us vision. That being said, it is absurd to say that a Creator God who made such an incredible being as a human would be "too busy" to love us and save us from death. He wants us to live forever with Him. Jesus Christ is God and he became a man, died on the cross, and rose from the dead to give us eteranl life. Ask God for faith and stop the nonsense.

  • Jane June 27, 2012 at 7:37 AM

    To Charles in reference to your comment:
    "More witch hunting I see. I'll bet the paycheck that a Democratic party is behing this to discredit the presidential candidate which happens to be Morman. I am absolutly offended. I would suggest that if someone doesnt understand something then to either learn or keep thier mouth shut. Atleast that is what I teach my five year old."
    Not all Mormons are going to vote for Mitt Romney, so your comment should not even refer to any political party. Romney is a politician. Although I do not agree with this writer, Sean McDowell, I do support his right to free speech. As you know we are all given our agency to choose. I agree that Mr. McDowell has taken each point out of context. Too bad he has a misconception of those things he cited. His view is far from the truth. One cannot have a true picture of Mormonism by simply taking out pieces and making comments such as he did.

  • Cathy June 27, 2012 at 7:38 AM

    It is amazing to me that all these "authoritative" experts, keep commenting and/or writing articles on the LDS (Mormon) Church. When in fact, they do not know the whole story about the Church. In trying to tell the public what we believe they show their stupidity to the world. If the public wants, and cannot get satisfactory answers to their questions from local members or missionaries, why not go the the Church's website for their answers instead of to someone like Sean McDowell, who is not LDS. Myself, I would rather get advise on a leaky faucet from a plumber than a dentist anyday. Just saying.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:01 AM

    Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 5:35 AM
    God the father has a resurrected and glorified body of flesh and bones, Christ, the son, has a glorified body of flesh and bones. The Holy Ghost if a personage of spirit. They are three distinct individuals, one in purpose and unity.

    This is an example of evolving theology since Joseph Smith Jr taught in 1835 before one of the nine first vision stories was chosen, taught God the Father was personage of spirit and Jesus was personage of tabernacle

    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith

    Lectures on Faith
    Lecture Five 2. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made…. They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, being in the form and likeness of man,

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:06 AM

    SUPERMAN June 27, 2012 at 12:21 AM

    Ivanhoe, you're not at the Renaissance Fair anymore. I just looked up Doctrine and Covenants 19 ( http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.31?lang=eng ), and it was aimed at and customized for a particular person- Martin Harris- at a particular time, for a particular reason. You surely know this, and yet you purposefully twist it to mean something that it does not, for your own odd purpose. You're probably an ex-mormon disgruntled-employee-type with a crazy axe to grind, am I right?

    Wrong, never been a Mormon but back in the 1960s I studied Christian Apologetics under Dr Walter Martin

    Book of Mormon says One God and not in "purpose"

    2 Nephi 31:
    21And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

    Alma 11:
    44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    Mormon 7:
    7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

    The Testimony of Three Witnesses
    And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris

    Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
    28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

  • Cathy June 27, 2012 at 8:10 AM

    If someone has a gripe against the LDS church, either discuss it WITH someone in authority, or get over it. Why publicly argue that the church teaches this or that. If you don't believe as we do, you have that agency. WE do believe these things, and that is OUR agency. We don't publicly slam other religions for what they teach/believe. I cannot understand why everyone is so against the LDS Church, and concerned about what we believe/teach. Catrhy Every man/woman has the free agency to choose what religion they want to practice. The amazingly fast growth of the LDS church will not falter. So, why can't everyone just agree to get along with that fact, and worry about their own salvation. Just Saying.....

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:14 AM

    SUPERMAN June 26, 2012 at 10:35 PM

    The Church and Race: All Are Alike Unto God: The gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone. The Book of Mormon states, “black and white, bond and free, male and female; … all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33). This is the Church’s official teaching. –from the 'Sistas in Zion' blog, owned and operated by two awesome black LDS ladies.

    Wrong again superman, Your passage in Nephi was never abided by with Mormons until 1978 when the blacks were allowed to be priests and women still aren't allowed priesthood.

    Christians have always allowed women and all races into " the Holy priesthood of God" something Apostle Peter mentions in his book .

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:21 AM

    SUPERMAN June 27, 2012 at 12:21 AM

    Ivanhoe, you're not at the Renaissance Fair anymore. I just looked up Doctrine and Covenants 19 ( http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.31?lang=eng ), and it was aimed at and customized for a particular person- Martin Harris- at a particular time, for a particular reason. You surely know this, and yet you purposefully twist it to mean something that it does not, for your own odd purpose. You're probably an ex-mormon disgruntled-employee-type with a crazy axe to grind, am I right?

    Wrong again Superman, Don't see anything about Martin Harris, but I'll add verse before and after. This passage is good reason to not trust Mormons for information since they are command to give no vital information about Mormonism

    Doctrine and Covenants 19 :

    30 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.

    31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

    32 Behold, this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life.




  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:31 AM

    SUPERMAN June 27, 2012 at 12:21 AM

    Ivanhoe, you're not at the Renaissance Fair anymore. I just looked up Doctrine and Covenants 19 ( http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.31?lang=eng ),

    Would you consider preface of Doctrine and Covenants 19 as authoriative since it wasn't considered so-called scripture ?

    “God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363/History of the Church, 6:319-20)

    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95)

    “Recently, at the Church-wide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks,....the debate is over.” (Ensign, November 1978, p. 108). I was impressed by that simple statement, which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us. Wherever I go, my message to the people is: follow the prophet.

    The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray:
    “I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past...we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of god, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112)

    no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. ...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are
    Author: Brigham Young
    Source: Journal Of Discourses
    Volume: 7
    Chapter: 14
    Page: 289


    There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it;
    Author: Brigham Young
    Source: Journal Of Discourses
    Volume: 3
    Page: 247


    The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.
    Author: Brigham Young
    Source: Journal Of Discourses
    Volume: 8
    Page: 115

  • Walt June 27, 2012 at 8:35 AM

    The Lord has stated that nothing should be added or subtracted from the Bible. He means nothing. When the pioneers added to the Bible by writing the "Other book of Jesus Christ". That right there is against God. The Holy Bible is just that. The word that has come directly from God. There is also the Trinity. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 persons in one. Jesus so stated it. By definition of any dictionary or encyclopedia it states that mormanism is a cult. The Bible doesn't have secret rituals, it doesn't need to. God's word is for everybody, He means everybody. Anyone who rejects that truth, rejects Jesus. Who ever rejects Jesus is going to one place. Not a good thought huh? So all you pious Norman's out there are in for a huge surprise when you die and meet God for your judgement. You are going to answer to your beliefs and church cannons. But it is not to late. Confess your sins to Jesus and turn away from your, how should I say this, misguided ways. Jesus loves you and he is waiting for you to answer the knock on your door.

  • Just a guy June 27, 2012 at 8:50 AM

    The article is right on and exposes Mormonism for the false teaching that it is. Christ came to set people free from sin, not be in bondage to "good works" to try and earn salvation. Its a false teaching and the Bible teaches differently. Biblical Christianity is very different from Mormonism and J.W. teachings. Search the Scriptures yourself.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:57 AM

    Book Of Abraham in Pearl of Great Price

    Chapter 4
    The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.


    1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, borganized and formed the heavens and the earth.

    2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

    3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

    Adam and Others helped in creation, it is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith. Doctrines of Salvation Vol. 1 p 74-75

    contrary to the Bible which says he created it alone

    Isa. 44:24

    Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
    And He who formed you from the womb:
    “I am the LORD, who makes all things,
    Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
    Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

  • Fred W. Anson June 27, 2012 at 9:35 AM

    Well since several Latter-day Saints have argued in this thread that (paraphrasing), "One is what one self-identifies one to be." I am happy and proud to announce.
    (drum roll puh-lease!)

    My name is Fred and I am a Mormon!

    AND TO ANY LdS DOUBTERS I ASSERT: I'M JUST AS MORMON AS YOU ARE!

    1) I believe in the Book of Mormon.
    Inasmuch as it's translated correctly, of course. And since it's been changed by the apostate LdS Church so many times it can hardly be completely trusted can it? That's I also believe that the Book of Zelph is truer and more accurate than The Book of Mormon simply because it's newer.

    2) I believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true Prophet of god.
    I define "true Prophet" as someone who was encoded with Prophet engrams by the great god Xenu in the pre-existence on Kolob. And I believe that after 1835 Joseph Smith, Jr. was a fallen prophet and anything after that can be ignored.

    3) I believe in the LdS Church.
    I believe that the LdS Church is true as The Book of Mormon and the Book of Zelph. However, I reject the Articles of Faith of the LdS Church and the 1916 THE FATHER AND THE SON: A Doctrinal Exposition because they're creeds and all creeds are corrupt simply because they're creeds - just like god told Joseph Smith, Jr. in the sacred grove. And any church that holds to creed is obviously corrupt!

    4) I believe in the Great Apostacy.
    Thus, I believe that the modern LdS Church is apostate and must be restored back to the original, primitive, religion as defined by Xenu in the pre-existence. This revelation is ongoing and thus revealed to us by the Book of Zelph and whatever other books I define as "new revelation". Therefore I reject the current LdS Church and the authority of it's leaders as apostate and corrupt while continuing to believe ONLY in the original, pure and restored 1830-1835 LdS Church. Thus, I refuse to go through the corrupt Masonic Temple Endowments of the post-1835 apostate LdS Church and/or be baptized into today's church of the devil!

    5) I have Priesthood Authority.
    Never-the-less, I have full Priesthood Authority because Xenu told me via a voice in my head that I do.

    In summary, this is what I believe:

    1) I believe in The Book of Mormon.
    2) I believe that Joseph Smith, Jr was a true Prophet of god.
    3) I believe in the LdS Church.
    4) I believe in the Great Apostacy.
    5) I have Priesthood Authority.

    So, of course, you'll accept me as a Mormon - right? After since I've self-identified as Mormon so I am one - right?

  • Mike W June 27, 2012 at 10:17 AM

    I can believe the Bible. I don't have to pick through it. What Jesus said and what biblical prophets said does not contridict with GODS word. Consistently LDS prophets say things that go against God's word. The fact is that if you have read these comments from Christians, especially how Mr. Ivanhoe put right in your face all the things that these LDS books and leaders have said. I don't feel bad for you. I feel bad for those who are LDS and do not know the truth yet. My heart hurts for them. I pray everyday that they will see the truth and hopefully change their minds and come to KNOW Jesus. The Christian Jesus of the New Testiment. Not the Jesus of the LDS books. That Jesus does not exist.

  • Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 10:32 AM

    Ivahone, You are taking things out of context to prove your point . Joseph Smith never taught that God the father and Jesus Christ were spirits only. Why, because he actually saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and they spoke to him. This was his first experience and this is how he described them. Of his first vision he states that "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun which descended gradually until it fell upon me. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other -- This is My Beloved Son, Hear Him!

    After actually seeing God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, there is no way that he would teach any thing other than what he saw and experienced. What better witness as to who and what God is than to actually see and converse with him. With this act God establish once again the truth of the Godhead, Three distinct beings two with glorified resurrected bodies and one a personage of spirit. The Holy Ghosts spirit residing within Joseph's spirit permitting him to see God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 10:33 AM

    http://sacredgrovesonline.org/videos/unveiling_grace.htm
    Link above is story of BYU proffesor and her Husband a former Bishop and her three children who were LDS missionarys

    http://www.mormonoutreach.org/pagan_and_occult_symbols.php
    link above proves Mormonism is the restored religion of Pharisees and Paganism combined

    Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
    Author: Joseph Smith
    Source: History Of The Church
    Volume: 1
    Page: 288

    The early brethren of this dispensation taught that the Garden of Eden was located in what is known to us as the land of Zion, an area for which Jackson County, Missouri, is the center place.
    Author: Bruce R. McConkie
    Source: Mormon Doctrine
    Chapter: 2
    Page: 20

  • Liam Brown June 27, 2012 at 10:33 AM

    Well, that's two minutes of my time wasted. Here I thought I'd be reading a thought-provoking discussion of Mormonism and "mainstream" Christianity. Just when I think we're making a little progress toward harmony, another troll publishes an article that can best be described as superficial and pedestrian in its treatment of the subject matter, and perhaps worst as subtly mixing outright falsehood with a few trivial facts. I'm not even going to dignify this article with a detailed response; I'm just going to say (at the end of an impossibly long series of incendiary responses, so there's little chance of my post being read) that this article is a waste of precious data storage that could have been used for educational, artistic, or otherwise edifying material. Shame on you, Sean McDowell.

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 10:40 AM

    Fred,

    A true prophet of God has to always be a true prophet of God. Everything a true prophet of God speaks has to be 100% accurate. Are there men on the moon, no! Why not put your entire trust in JESUS CHRIST of the Holy Bible, and quit depending on a so called prophet for your beliefs and foundation. Have all you mormons ever thought for just one second, that maybe you should take a closer look as to why Christians are VERY concerned about the validity, and authenticity of this religion, and where it is leading souls to. You must not just be led by blind faith alone. If things contradict and don't make any sense, it's because they are not of or from God. God is not a God of confusion. If things don't align up with his original word, and instead they deviate from it, or contradict it, they can't be trusted! God wouldn't send us numerous records that all contradict one another. Also, right before Jesus died for our sins he said, "It is finished!" Mormon people please know that there was warnings in the Bible about false prophets that would try to preach another gospel other than the one found in God's word (HOLY BIBLE)...The bible says that those people that preach and follow another gospel are to be accursed. Satan himself can appear as an angel of light and so can his workers. Joseph Smith claimed God told him to restore the true gospel because all other beliefs were wrong, confusing, and an abomination. Well, that makes no sense at all. Why would God want to replace Christianity (what Jesus taught) with a religion that is one of the most confusing and contradicting religions of of all time?

    The Truth = ONE God, ONE Lord (Jesus is God) ONE Faith, ONE Gospel and ONE true church (which is the Body of Christ).

    ‎"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your MIND." Luke 10:27

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 10:43 AM

    One of the easy ways to tell if Mormonism is correct and Christianity is Apotaste is to check their Worship music, They sing about there temples and Joseph Smith Jr and their Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings mostly songs from what they call apostate composers. I have a link below that shows the difference in Christian music versus Mormon, Christians Worship Jesus not a man made religion. Brookyln Tabernacle Choir is featured on this link and proves how a small anointed Choir can knock the socks off Mormon Tabernacle Choir

    http://www.youtube.com/user/jesusisjehovah

  • Fred W. Anson June 27, 2012 at 10:48 AM

    Liam Brown, if the discussion thread is as you've suggested then I would propose that you post content that you feel will improve it. As Ghandi said well:

    "You must BE the change you want to see in the world."

    Personally, I see nothing more than a typical "public square" discussion here, not scholarly, but sincere and impassioned. So IMO if it's not to your liking, you should change the tone by offering something better. BE the change you want to see in the world.

    Otherwise, your post might be perceived by some as pointless condescending, self-righteous, arrogant, snark.

    Just my 2p.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 10:51 AM

    Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 10:32 AM
    Ivahone, You are taking things out of context to prove your point . Joseph Smith never taught that God the father and Jesus Christ were spirits only.

    The Lectures of Faith wrote by Joseph Smith Jr said God the Father was personage of spirit and Jesus was personage of tabernacle , so you miss quoted me and Joseph Smith Jr

    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith

    Lectures on Faith
    Lecture Five 2. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made…. They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man,

    and their were 9 first vision stories must didn't mention Joseph seeing God the Father and Jesus

  • Fred W. Anson June 27, 2012 at 10:54 AM

    Mitzi, first, I think you should do a Google search and read my body of Mormon Studies work.
    (I would give some links but I don't know what Biola's policy is on embedding URLs into posts here)

    You're bailing water into the ocean when it's better served to those in the desert.

    ;-)

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 10:57 AM

    Here's how Mormon blind guides teach their blind students what we believe on Trinity when we say three separate and distinct persons represent the One God

    In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards
    Page 18 under the heading John's Testimony of the Personality of God
    Says "This accords also with the report of John's baptism of Jesus:
    16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and £He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
    Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?

    President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.' ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical

    Bill McKeever;Eric Johnson. Mormonism 101: Examining the Religion of the Latter-day Saints (Kindle Locations 503-507). Kindle Edition.

    James Talmage states: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)

    1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
    Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

  • Fred W. Anson June 27, 2012 at 10:59 AM

    Mitzi, second, if you don't understand the rhetorical technique I was using in my post you can send me an email using one of the "contact" links embedded in one of my articles and I'll explain it to you in detail.

    Thanks.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 11:01 AM

    The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and (c) these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it.

    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


    TRINITY

    The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

    (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


    Trinity

    — a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr.
    trias
    , first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

    (from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


  • TRUTH! June 27, 2012 at 11:02 AM

    I urge all Mormons to watch this video. This lady knows TRUTH and says it how it is! Even if just one Mormon watches this, and sees truth, and takes off the shackles and chains of the bondage of that religion....well then PRAISE the LORD! :) This will bring tears to your eyes! It did mine!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bboJVqATcS0

  • Hope June 27, 2012 at 11:40 AM

    So, I have a question..If Mormons believe that Christ died for all of mankind's sins, and we all get to go to one of the lower levels of heaven, and only the Mormons whom turn their backs on the church, and the fallen angels go to hell, then does that mean that a person that does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior can get into his kingdom? Didn't Jesus Christ say that nobody comes to the father but through him? Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) Yes, he died for all our sins, but we still have to accept his free gift of grace, and believe in him as our savior, to be a part of the kingdom.

    We are all born with a sinful nature and fallen short of the glory of God. Do you have to teach a child how to be good or how to be bad? That is an easy answer, you have to teach them how to not steal, hit, bite, etc...They have a sinful nature. Excluding little children that are not at an age to understand, and reason, we all have to have accept Jesus Christ as our savior in order to get forgiveness, so we can be in the presence of God. We can't be in his kingdom with our sin.

    I would like to think that all good people go to heaven, but come on people, what is God's standard of good? Once again, we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. Saying that all people go to heaven is a delusion that the devil uses to make people have a false sense of security. If someone denies Christ, they surely will not enter his kingdom. If someone has the wrong God and the wrong Jesus, they surely will not enter the kingdom. How is that even fair to Christ? Even some that have referred to him as Lord will not enter his kingdom. "Not all people who sound religious are really Godly. They may refer to me as Lord, but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my father in Heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 12:12 PM

    Hope June 27, 2012 at 11:40 AM

    So, I have a question..If Mormons believe that Christ died for all of mankind's sins, and we all get to go to one of the lower levels of heaven, and only the Mormons whom turn their backs on the church, and the fallen angels go to hell, then does that mean that a person that does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior can get into his kingdom?

    In Mormonism Jesus didn't die for sins, murder, Adultery and apostacy are sins Jesus blood isn't strong enough to cover .

    Joseph Fielding Smith said in Answers to Gospel Questions Volume 3

    A murder, for instance one that sheds innocent blood cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get through hell. Answers to Gospel Questions Volume 3 p 143 He quotes Joseph Smith Jr. In Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith pp. 239,188 and uses Psalms 16:8 ; Acts 3: 19-21and Acts 2 25-34 as proof that David went to hell.

    Smith didn't know Scripture since the verse he used aren't refering to David but Jesus


    Acts 13:34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David, for after David had served his generation according to the will of God, he died and was buried, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to another—someone God brought back to life, whose body was not touched at all by the ravages of death.

  • Hope June 27, 2012 at 12:32 PM

    So according to Mormons, if anyone has committed adultery, or murder, they go to hell? Where would that put the soul/spirit of Joseph Smith? He was married and had relations with other women and he killed right before he died as well. I would like my earlier question to be answered by a mormon(s) so I can hear it come out of their mouth as to exactly what they believe on this. From what I can now gather, it is those that murder, commit adultery, turn away from the LDS church, and fallen angels that go to hell. EVERYONE else goes to a certain level of heaven? Is that correct? Who goes to which level of heaven and can people move up to a higher level from a lower level? What is spiritual prison all about? Is that like a purgatory state?

  • M.W. June 27, 2012 at 4:43 PM

    Good question Hope. I've asked the same thing in the past and haven't gotten a straight answer out of anyone. Please someone, give this woman a straight answer. I would like to know as well.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 5:06 PM

    Your never going to get a straight answer from a Mormon " smoke and mirrors" is there main defense in debate or question . They are commanded to do that or they would lose most of their investagators.

    No three degees of glory in this verse just two different bodies

    1 Corinthians 15:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    A The Earthy or terrestrial
    Corruption
    Dishonor
    Weakness
    Natural body

    Would any of these words be referring to a heaven ? corruption, dishonor, weakness, natural body

    B the heavenly or celestial
    In incorruption
    In glory
    raised in power
    spiritual body

    This letter by Paul parallels 1 Cor. 15, and why shouldn’t since Paul wrote both
    2 Corinthians 5
    New Bodies
    1 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.
    2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.
    3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.
    4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
    5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

  • Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM

    I would like you to get your facts straight before you quote what Mormons believe. Lets get some facts straight. Joseph Smith, married all his wives, if you are married you are not committing adultery. Joseph Smith didn't kill anyone as he was being killed by a mob.

    Now to your comments on murder, When one person takes the life of another person, premeditated, that is murder and is not forgiven. When a person commits adultery, and completely repents of this he can be forgiven.

    Now we have to explore the difference between your belief in one heaven and one hell and the LDS view of life after this one. The first thing that we need to get clear is the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane paid the price for each of our sins. Therefore it is only through the Grace of Christ that we can get back into, for now lets say your heaven. You may ask "Have you been saved"? My answer is yes. Will I be resurrected with a body of flesh and bones? Yes, just like the one that our resurrected Lord and Savior has presently by his grace. If you go to my web cite whoisourgod.com and click on the subject of atonement you will get the distinction between faith and works. After reading this come back and I will explain the LDS view of life after this one. You need an understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ before the rest makes sense to you. If you are a true seeker after truth you will do this. If you just want to argue there is no need to proceed any farther.

  • Hope June 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM

    Ivanhoe,

    Wow, you really know your stuff. What state do you live in? I am in Idaho... I bet if a missionary ever showed up at your door, they would have to go get debriefed, and re-brain washed, because you would confuse them with the truth. It seems to me that whenever you ask them a in depth question, they divert the question, or they vanish....HMM. Mormons have obviously taken things from the bible out of context and created their own version of heaven. There are NO levels people. The Bible speaks of a heaven and a hell. It seems to me that there are so many questions that they can't answer because they don't really know how to. You will get a different answer from one mormon to the next.

    Another thing I would like to know is if they don't believe that there is only ONE God, whom is ALPHA and OMEGA, and created everything, then exactly who was it that created the VERY first man that became a God? Is there some type of evolution theory going on? Also, why did Jesus even die on the cross, if everyone gets to get into heaven without accepting him, and asking him for forgiveness? Does every god of their planet have to die for the sins of their planet? Do rocks grow? Do people live on the moon? Is the black man a cursed race? Think Think Think.....for yourselves. Why did Satan get cast out of heaven........because he believed he could be God.

  • M.W. June 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM

    Hope, I don't know what part of Idaho you are from, but Calvary Chapel in Idaho Falls is doing a sermon series on the first sunday of every month about discovering the difference between the LDS faith and Christianity. So far they have only done two weeks but they can be viewed here:
    http://www.calvaryif.com/media/discovering-the-difference

    If the link doesn't work, just go to calvaryif.com then roll your mouse over the media tab and you will see it at the bottom. Discovering the Difference. So far it has been pretty eye opening. They actually talk to former mormons so it is accurate. There was also a sermon that you can see under media in the sermon library from April 14th and 15th that talks to a former bishop. I have also watched the touched my grace stories that have a link on the main page. There are several ex mormon families that speak about their journey. I've learned a lot from these but hopefully many more questions will be answered as the weeks continue. The answers come straight out of the bible and the mormon point of view is given by people who had been in the church for years and years. So it's honest and straight forward and interesting to see the differences.

  • Patti June 27, 2012 at 7:27 PM

    So many Christians get it wrong about 'nothing else should be added to this book' -- that is ONLY referring to the book of Revelation, not the whole NT or whole Bible. And who are we to tell God there can be no further revelation?? There is and he communicates with us on a personal level through personal revelation as well as with modern Prophets.

  • M.W. June 27, 2012 at 7:35 PM

    No, Mormons take that out of context. It is referring to the entire Bible.Not just Revelation. Look at the verse simply. Don't try to pull information out of it that isn't there. Plus, when Joseph Smith was "correcting" the Bible he made a number of changes to the book of Revelation. I'm not saying the mormon church uses this version of the Bible because I know that you don't but your prophet still did what God warned against. Even with how the LDS excuse it as just in the book of revelation. Revelation is the concluding part of the Bible it only makes sense that God would warn not to add or take away from his Word in the last book in the Bible.

  • M.W. June 27, 2012 at 7:44 PM

    Deuteronomy 4:2.“You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

    Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

    Revelation 22:18-19 “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

  • Mitzi June 27, 2012 at 8:04 PM

    M.W.

    Could not have said it better! I also had a Mormon once tell me that God only meant for us not to add to the book of Revelations. O.k., that makes no sense at all. The Holy Bible is several books, that makes up one book, that flows together as a whole. It only makes sense that the warning would come at the end of the Holy Bible. It would not be necessary to repeat the same thing over and over at the end of each and every book when it is ONE whole book....However, M.W., you have found verses in other parts of the bible that confirm that God commanded of us to not add or take away from the Bible!! How can Mormons argue these scriptures? I'm now waiting to see what they have to say about that!! The Book Of Mormon practically plagiarizes the bible. It is scripture from the Bible along with some man made up fantasy junk... It's like throwing a couple of diamonds in with cut glass and calling it all diamonds. DNA is strong enough evidence to put people on death row, but I guess it wasn't good enough for the Mormons to realize that the Book Of Mormon is all BOGUS..They are so proud. I wonder if they will try arguing with Jesus on judgment day about his own word...SMH.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:16 PM

    Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM

    I would like you to get your facts straight before you quote what Mormons believe. Lets get some facts straight. Joseph Smith, married all his wives, if you are married you are not committing adultery. Joseph Smith didn't kill anyone as he was being killed by a mob.

    Jesus said

    Matt 19:8 He said to them, “It was because of your hardness of heart that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. But from the beginning it was not this way.
    9 I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    So Joseph Smith Jr married many women still married to other men, Parley Pratt a Mormon so-called Apostle tried that too and was killed by jealous husband.

    Joseph Smith Killed three people with his gun in jail while smoking a cigar and drinking wiskey

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:21 PM

    Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 5:45 PM

    Now we have to explore the difference between your belief in one heaven and one hell and the LDS view of life after this one. The first thing that we need to get clear is the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane paid the price for each of our sins. Therefore it is only through the Grace of Christ that we can get back into, for now lets say your heaven

    That's why the message of the Cross seems foolish to a Mormon

    1 Cor 1:
    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

    “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

    And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:25 PM

    Shot three two died at Joseph Smith Jr hands

    In the introduction to volume 6 of the History of the Church, page XLI, Joseph Smith is praised for his part in the gunfight: "... the Prophet turned from the prostrate form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire of his assailants, 'bringing his man down everytime,' and compelling even John Hay, who but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he 'made a handsome fight.'..."

    John Taylor, who became the third president of the church, testified concerning the death of Joseph Smith:

    He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3).

  • M.W. June 27, 2012 at 8:49 PM

    Ivanhoe,
    Wow, I did not know that Joseph Smith killed somone (more than one). Do Mormons know the history of their own church? With everything stacked against Joseph Smith, not just a couple things but many things...I can't understand how he is seen as a prophet. I have been to a few LDS church services. Mainly for a mission farwell or two and all they talked about was joseph smith and other "prophets." The only time I heard Jesus' name was at the end of the prayer and in mention when talking about Joseph Smith's first experience. This was even before I was saved and it just bothered me. I will always remember it. I love going to church and hearing about Jesus for the entire hour and worshiping my Lord Jesus. I didn't sing along with mormon hyms but I read them and it wasn't worship to my lord Jesus.

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:50 PM

    This lists the 5 teenage wives of Joseph Smith and the married ones

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

    Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

    So Joseph married 3 children 14-15 plus two more teenager, no wonder he was killed

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 8:58 PM

    M.W.
    I will always remember it. I love going to church and hearing about Jesus for the entire hour and worshiping my Lord Jesus. I didn't sing along with mormon hyms but I read them and it wasn't worship to my lord Jesus.

    Yes that's a big difference in Christianity and Mormonism, that's why my Mormon friends in Washington State borrow my collection of Worship music because Mormons lack that part and it can't be counterfeited by them.

    http://youtu.be/DdQ79-GBRi4 Example of Pure Worship

  • Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 9:07 PM

    Ivanhoe, You are fabricating lies and then quoting History of the Church as if it was authentic. The story of the assassination of the Prophet Joseph Smith is in History of the Church Vol. VI Page 619-622 and I quote: "Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the casing of the door into the space as before, three barrels of which missed fire, while Mr Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharging through the doorway, "

    They were just trying to defend themselves from the mob that was intent on killing them.

  • Arthur Whittaker June 27, 2012 at 9:27 PM

    Your History of the Church is different than mine. I don't know who published your s but mine was published by Deseret Book Company 44 East South Temple, Salt Lake City, Utah.;

  • Ivanhoe June 27, 2012 at 9:34 PM

    Here's a site of Joseph Smith Jr Smoking and drinking and killing, just googled it, no wonder Mormons don't like the internet


    http://www.mrm.org/death-of-joseph-smith

  • TRUTH! June 27, 2012 at 9:59 PM

    Regardless, look at the big picture...Any one with half a brain should be able to figure out that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet of God and that he preached a false gospel. Mormons have the wrong God and the wrong Jesus. Mormons have, in a very deceiving manner, twisted everything that the one true God said. The only being that can be behind such a scam that has lasted this long is the devil himself. After all, the devil wanted to be God. He probably gets a kick out of all these men thinking they can become Gods. I would hope and pray all Mormons could find the truth, and get on their knees, and ask the one and only true God for forgiveness for buying into all the lies! LDS should be called The church of the Anti-Christ of the Latter day Saintless. Anyone that denies Jesus as God has an anti-Christ spirit over them.

    Does this sound like a true prophet of God-
    "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) -JOSEPH SMITH.

    Such a humble man....lol

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 12:03 AM

    Even Mormon scripture denies a total or universal apostasy. The B. of M. III Nephi 28 and the D. & C., Section 7, tell the story of the Apostle John and three "Nephite" apostles who were to remain alive on the earth until the second coming of the Lord! If four apostles have been on earth since the time of Christ, a universal apostasy could not have taken place during that time according to President Joseph Fielding Smith, the 10th Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS Church. He said, "As long as one elder remains on earth today he would have the priesthood and could organize the church even though all of the apostles and first presidency, etc., were killed off" (Latter Day Prophets Speak by David H. Ludlow, p. 213). Can that be true of the LDS Church today and not have been true for the original church after which the LDS Church claims to be patterned? Thus, even if a universal apostasy took place, the four Apostles who never died could have restored the church without Smith's help! But, LDS claim Christ's church ceased to exist after about 100 years while Smith's is still growing after more than 150 years! Did Joseph Smith really build a better church than Jesus Christ ?

    Mormon teach that the Apostle John never died along with Three So-called Apostles

    Doctrine and Covenant 7:
    1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
    2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
    3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

    3 Nephi 28:4-9 - "And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father? And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired. And he said unto them: Behold I know your thoughts, and ye have desored the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me. Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death;

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 12:20 AM

    Total Apostasy


    "...at this present time also there is a remnant..."
    -- Romans 11:5



    Jesus Christ is powerful enough to bring about what He promised:


    Matthew 16:18 - "...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."


    The teaching here is clear. Jesus Christ would build His Church in the future and nothing would stop it. However, the teaching doesn't stop there:


    2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15 - "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

    Galatians 1:6-9 - "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 - "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

    2 Thessalonians 3:14 - "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed."

    1 John 2:18-21 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."

    Jude 1:3 - "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."




  • M.W. June 28, 2012 at 1:14 AM

    Ivanhoe,
    Thank you for posting those passages. It's very encouraging and extremely revealing to read. Especially the Corinthians and Galatians ones. There is no doubt, so straightforward and simple. It amazes me how someone of LDS faith could read this and not feel like it is being spoken about the Mormon church.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:03 AM

    Here is what Mormons are told to “think” about the Bible.

    What the Mormon “prophet” said of the Bible:

    Joseph Smith taught that the Bible is CORRUPT, therefore necessarily untrustworthy. In fact it was, according to him, so corrupt that HE had to come along and “translate” it by his supposed divine gifts. Given the massive disparities between the biblical text in the original languages and his own “Inspired Translation”, it is obvious that Smith thought the Bible was virtually ENTIRELY corrupt.

    1. "It was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" and "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 10, 327).

    What Mormon “scripture” teaches about the Bible:

    1. The Bible is corrupt:
    When "the book (i.e. the Bible) proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew...it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record" (1 Nephi 13:24). Nevertheless, according to Mormon “revelation” through Joe Smith’s occult treasure-hunting rock, “God” supposedly says: "thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church...after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book (again, the Bible), which is the book of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles" (BoM, 1 Nephi 13:26,28).

    2. The Bible is insufficient:
    "...many of the Gentiles (meaning non-Mormons in Mormo-speak) shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible...Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29:3,10).

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:06 AM

    1. The Bible is lying:
    "You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe...I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.6).

    2. The Bible cannot be trusted:
    "...and who, in his right mind, could for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? No one can tell whether even one verse of either the Old or New Testament conveys the ideas of the original author" ( Orsen Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 28).

    3. The Bible is not translated correctly:
    "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors, many plain and precious things were deleted, in consequence of which error and falsehood poured into the churches. One of the great heresies of modern Christendom is the unfounded assumption that the Bible contains all of the inspired teachings now extant among men" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 82,83).

    He also wrote: “The Bible of the Old World has come to us from the manuscripts of antiquity - manuscripts which passed through the hands of uninspired men who changed many parts to suit their own doctrinal ideas. Deletions were common, and, as it now stands, many plain and precious portions and many covenants of the Lord have been lost. As a consequence, those who rely upon it [the Bible] alone stumble and are confused... (The Ensign, December 1985, p 55).

    4. The Bible is the product of deliberate distortion:
    "Many insertions were made, some of them slanted for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated" (Apostle Mark E. Petersen “As Translated Correctly”, p.4).

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:08 AM

    The simple, obvious and even necessary inference from the above FACTS is that Mormons are taught to think of the Bible as vastly inferior to the LDS “scriptures”. Mormon leaders have made this necessary inference absolutely explicit:

    1. While the Bible was mistranslated, the BoM was translated correctly:
    "Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the Book of Mormon came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation" (President Ezra Taft Benson, "The Keystone of Our Religion", The Ensign, January 1992, page 5).

    2. The Mormon prophet placed the BoM above the Bible:
    "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was more correct than any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.194).

    3. “Prophet” Smith’s teaching continues in our times:
    "Men can get nearer to the Lord, can have more of the spirit of conversion and conformity in their hearts...can gain a better understanding of the doctrines of salvation through the Book of Mormon than they can through the Bible...there will be more people saved in the kingdom of God - ten thousand times over - because of the Book of Mormon than there will be because of the Bible" (The Ensign, November 1984, p. 7).

    4. The Book of Mormon is the index of absolute truth and the Bible must measure up to IT:
    "The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations". (LDS Presidents Benson, Hinckley, and Monson – “Church News”, June 20, 1992, page 3, letter dated May 22, 1992).


    The facts in evidence before us all makes the following perfectly clear:

    1. Mormons are taught that the Bible is incomplete, mistranslated, full of lies, corrupt and cannot be trusted.

    2. Mormons are taught that the Bible is inferior to their own supposedly miraculously delivered “scriptures”.

    Joseph Smith’s own allegedly miraculous, “Inspired Translation” (ie "translated" from perfect Jacobian English into a bad imitation of Jacobian English) proves just how corrupted and untrustworthy the Bible really is according to the "prophet" of Mormonism. (Just ignore the fact that the JST is the single WORST translation of the Bible in the history of Bible translation. It has been conclusively proven to be so BAD and distorted compared to the original langauge, that even Mormons do not use it).

    So as Dberrie2000 accuses Christians of NOT using the Bible (BTW - an absolute and bluntly stupid LIE that is painfully obvious to anyone who can read the posts all over this forum) the obvious question is, WHY should Christians or anyone use the Bible at all?

  • Mitzi June 28, 2012 at 11:37 AM

    Mormons try to say that the Bible was translated by Catholics. Therefore, it is the least trusted out of all their books. However, Catholics did not translate it. They have their own Alexandrian text, which is not the Holy Bible.. The Holy Bible was collected by the Christian Antioch disciples, and then translated from these collections, under the supervision of King James. God preserved his word exactly how he intended it! The Bible is the only thing that can be trusted!

    The Founders and leaders of Mormonism hate both Christians and Catholics:

    "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
    - Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

    http://youtu.be/ZwmSbgnMrK0 - Historical quotes from Mormon leaders on Christianity.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 1:46 PM

    Notice how the Mormons have left this discussion because they can’t defend the lies of Mormonism and there’s no monitor to censor the Mormon distractors, so they are at a big disadvantage sticking up for lies, heresy , and the teachings of the devils. They are like cockroaches fleeing the light of truth.

  • Mitzi June 28, 2012 at 1:52 PM

    Ivanhoe- You have that right! Truth will always prevail and light with always shine over darkness.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 2:04 PM

    Southern Baptist Website= I go to a Baptist Church

    From an evangelical perspective, Mormonism is not faithfully or soundly Christian because it deviates from historic, biblical standards of orthodox Christianity. For example, Mormonism teaches that God the Father is an exalted Man, that Jesus, angels, and human beings were all the literal spirit offspring of our "heavenly Father and Mother," and that the ultimate goal of the Christian life is to become exalted to Godhood ourselves. The LDS Church derives these doctrines from its expanded canon of "scripture" that includes alleged modern revelations given to Joseph Smith, who claimed to be the Prophet through whom God restored true Christianity to the earth. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that God is not a man (Num. 23:19) but is transcendent, omnipresent Spirit (1 Kings 8:27; Is. 31:3; John 4:24), that there are no other Gods alongside him, and that there will be no Gods formed in the future (Is. 43:10; 44:6-8). Human beings did not preexist as spirits in heaven before their earthly lives; the only human being who preexisted in heaven (as spirit) before becoming a man was Jesus Christ (John 3:31; 16:28). The New Testament instructs us as believers in Christ to dissociate ourselves religiously from groups that teach such false doctrines that deviate in crucial ways from the apostolic message (Rom. 16:17-18; 2 Cor. 11:3-4, 13-15; Gal. 1:6-9; 1 Tim. 4:1-2; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; Titus 1:10-16; 2 Pet. 2:1; 3:16-17; 1 John 4:1-6; 2 John 7-11).

    Our conclusion that Mormonism is not "Christian" in this narrower, theological sense does not imply any animosity or hostility toward Latter-day Saints. Devout Mormons tend to be good citizens, to espouse high, conservative moral values, and to make common cause with conservative Christians on such important social issues as abortion. Nor do evangelicals single out Mormonism on this issue, since we reach similar conclusions about a variety of "Christian" religious groups whose teachings differ radically from biblical, historic Christian orthodoxy (e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses and the Unification Church, mentioned earlier). Our intent is to draw attention to the serious differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity in order that believers may be prepared to share the truth with their LDS friends and loved ones.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 2:10 PM

    E. Calvin Beisner
    God in Three Persons
    The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

    The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
    The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.
    The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )
    The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )
    The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )
    Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20

    When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

    We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

    “The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 2:12 PM

    The nature of God vs. the nature of man

    The most important, distinctive and defended doctrine of Mormonism can be summed up by the famous couplet of Mormon President Lorenzo Snow (president from 1898-1901). This couplet can be recited by every moderately knowledgeable Latter-day Saint (as Mormons call themselves): As man now is, God once was; As God now is, Man may become.

    Any Bible-savvy Christian recognizes this statement as patently unbiblical. Not only is it unbiblical, it is of paramount importance. Such a teaching blurs the distinction between the almighty, self-existent God, and the creatures He has made. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed, "Man is co-equal with God himself." 1 Smith taught – and his successors have maintained – that there are many gods in the universe. He told his congregation: "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves … the same as all Gods have done before you … until you are able to sit in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory."

    Joseph Smith’s most noted successor, Brigham Young, remarked, "Man is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in embryo."

    This pervasive teaching about the godhood of man is called, in Mormon theology, the doctrine of eternal progression. Mormon theology says Mormon men will one day rule over their own worlds as a God. This doctrine is foreshadowed in Smith’s version of the creation of the earth: "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it."

    Man, according to Smith, is himself self-existent with God; Man’s intelligence is coequal with that of God: "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is coequal with God himself."

  • M.W. June 28, 2012 at 2:27 PM

    Exactly Ivanhoe, whenever you ask questions then use the Bible to back up the truth and show what mormon "prophets" have said that don't line up with the word of God they run away. The become uncomfortable and say they don't want part in the conversation. If their church was true they could defend themselves, but they can't.

  • Patti June 28, 2012 at 5:40 PM

    M.W. - You're all just looking to fight with LDS and that's why they leave...no point in talking to people who have no interest in knowing the truth but are only looking to beat up on LDS because for some reason you get your kicks from it...must be something more interesting your life to do than bash others who don't agree with you religiously. You all just hear what you want to hear & close your minds to anything LDS would tell you anyway so there's no point in discussing most things with you.

    And the books in the OT & NT were put together so they flow as much as possible but are in no chronological order so Revelation is not the 'last book' in the bible...it just happened to be put in at the end. So yes, it's right that 'not adding or taking anything from this book' IS referring to Revelation specifically. Actually, it says the same basic thing in Deuteronomy 4:2 -
    2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 5:46 PM

    JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 5:51 PM

    What Salvation means to a Mormon:
    A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:

    "There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation" (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
    "All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected" (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ", LDS tract, p.28).
    The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".

    General salvation- in Mormon theology, the death of Christ ransoms men from the effects of the fall (Mormon Doctrine, p.62), except for a few sons of perdition who fell with Lucifer. Thus, all mankind will eventually receive general salvation because all men will be resurrected.
    Individual salvation - to obtain individual salvation, the standards set forth by the Mormon church must be met. This comes by grace plus baptism plus works.
    Exaltation - different degrees of exaltation
    Eternal life on the other hand is reserved for the elite few who qualify and are found worthy of this "honor" or "reward" and who will move on to be "exalted." This salvation is in fact the personal "exaltation" or the fast track of the "eternal progression" process in attaining your own self-made status of godhood in order to people your own planet.

    In Mormonism salvation comes to everyone

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 7:04 PM

    Patti June 28, 2012 at 5:40 PM

    M.W. - You're all just looking to fight with LDS and that's why they leave...no point in talking to people who have no interest in knowing the truth but are only looking to beat up on LDS because for some reason you get your kicks from it

    If the Mormons could pull there deception with Impunity they would debate. But since there getting caught lying they have ran, like little coakroaches when the light is shined on them

  • M.W. June 28, 2012 at 7:23 PM

    Patti,
    Neither I or anyone else here is trying to start a fight with the LDS.I have heard a lot about what LDS have to say. I live in an area where this is prominent and 95% of the people I know are LDS. They aren't responding because they have no way of debating back. Every Christian here as supported what they think with the word of God. There is no arguing with the word of God. I think for me and any other Christian we feel sad that the mormon people are being lied to and angry that our God's name is on their church when they learn about a different Jesus. It's deception, it pulls people in with Jesus' name, family values and morals. But the core of it is NOT of God. I believe what the Bible says with all my heart and mind. Anyone else here who feels the same way about the Bible and of my Lord Jesus they would know that Mormonism is a lie. I am only passionate about this because I see too many people stuck in this church without a relationship with Jesus and it kills me to see. I will not stop speaking out about it because it needs to be known. Souls are at stake here. Everyone needs to know the truth and there are so many Mormons out there who have no clue. I want as many brothers and sisters in heaven as possible.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:24 PM

    Is Mormonism Christian?

    The question above actually can be phrased in several ways:

    'Is the Mormon church a Christian denomination?' NO. Mormonism is not Christian because it denies some of the essential doctrines of Christianity, including: 1) the deity of Christ, 2) salvation by grace, and 3) the bodily resurrection of Christ. Furthermore, Mormon doctrine contradicts the Christian teaching of monotheism and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible. The evidence for these statements is documented in section 3 below.
    'Are Mormons Christians?' LIKELY NOT, if they believe the major doctrines of their church.
    'Can a Mormon be a Christian?'. POSSIBLY. Only God knows what each person believes (and why) regarding His Son, Jesus Christ. But as a person stays in the Mormon church, absorbs and accepts Mormon teaching, doctrine and 'latter-day revelation', the chances of answering the question in the affirmative approach zero. The key question Mormons must answer is 'WHO is the Jesus they believe in'?
    In the New Testament book of 2 Corinthians, the apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received... a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4).

    In the New Testament book of Galatians, Paul again warns: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).

    I doubt if Moroni came from heaven

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:32 PM

    Here are some of the general simularities between Mormonism and Masonry. Keep in mind that Masonic rituals and symbols pre-date the LDS church by several hundred years:

    All Seeing Eye
    Anointing with oil
    Apron
    Beehive
    Square and Compass
    Earth Symbol
    Emblem of the clasped hands
    Solemn Assembly in the Temple
    Five points of Fellowship
    Special Garments applied to initiates
    Garment Markings
    Grips (Special handshakes)
    The phrase: "Holiness to the Lord"
    Moon symbol
    New Name given
    Special Prayer circle
    Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods
    Blood/death oaths of secrecy with morbid gestures
    Location (possession of) Throne of the "Holy of Holies"
    Star symbols (satanic) back to ancient times
    Sun symbols ( the pagan god baal)
    Tabernacles
    Temples

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 9:37 PM

    If you were taught that we pre-exsisted with God...
    Run for your Bible!

    Did our spirits pre-exsist? were we eternal like God?
    Lets see what the bible says about it...

    John 8:22-23 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he said, Where I go, you cannot come. And he said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Notice, first God formed man from the dust, and then man received the breath of life. It was at this point that man became a living soul.

    Zechariah 12:1

    The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    This passage clearly shows when God created the spirit — it is within a man. This order is the same given in Genesis 2:7 above. Again, notice what is maintained: the physical body is formed first, then the spirit is added within. Neither of these texts (Genesis 2:7 and Zechariah 12:1) allows for a preexisting spiritual being.

    Romans 8:29 For those God "foreknew" he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

    fore·knowl·edge
    Awareness of something before it happens or exists.

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    The Apostle Paul gives this general law in the context of his exposition on the resurrection of the dead. While this law obviously applies to God's creation of man (see above), it reveals much more:

    This does not mean simply that the natural body precedes the spiritual body, but it announces, as it were, a general law. The lower precedes the higher; the imperfect precedes the perfect. This is true in all the works of God in which there is a development. Adam's earthly state was to prepare the way for a heavenly one. The present life is like a seed time; the harvest is hereafter. The natural comes before the spiritual.

    The separation of the physical and the spiritual was the horrible result of the Fall, but through Jesus Christ, the two can be rejoined. This begins when the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart of an individual, and he or she will be completely restored at the resurrection on the last day.

    It should be clear that the Bible teaches that there is a sovereign God (the only God) who has created people according to His will and for His purposes. Their physical bodies are formed and then immediately God's breath of life is given to them. It is only by God's grace and through Him that we have life and continue to exist. And it is only through His Son, Jesus Christ, that we can be restored to all that God has created us to be.

    (mrm.org and me)

  • R. June 28, 2012 at 11:02 PM

    Ivanhoe,
    Thank you for posting all these verses. I'll have to copy and paste all your posts for future reference on this subject.

  • Ivanhoe June 28, 2012 at 11:43 PM

    How can you Believe in a plurality of gods and be a Monotheist ? Shows the quicksand foundation of Mormonism

    Plurality of Gods
    See ADAM-GOD THEORY, CHRIST, FALSE GODS, FATHER IN HEAVEN, GODHEAD, GODHOOD, HOLY GHOST, POLYTHEISM. Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods.

    Monotheism
    See ATHEISM, DEISM, GOD, HENOTHEISM, PLURALITY OF GODS, POLYTHEISM THEISM. Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage — are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists. Professing Christians consider themselves monotheists as distinguished from polytheists, those pagan peoples who believe in a host of gods whose powers are exercised only in their own fields.

    Henotheism
    See ATHEISM, DEISM, GOD, MONOTHEISM, POLYTHEISM, THEISM. Henotheism is the belief in and worship of one God without at the same time denying that others can with equal truth worship different gods. It is falsely taught in the sectarian world that Abraham, for instance, was a henotheist that is, that he worshiped the Almighty, but that at the same time he considered that other nations could worship their own gods with equally beneficial results. This apostate view is erroneously considered to be one step advanced from polytheism and one step behind the final type of monotheism that was in process of evolving.

  • Leszek June 29, 2012 at 9:57 AM

    I started to read some posts, both of people who are trying so hard to disprove doctrine and teachings of the LDS church and those who passionately, bless their hearts, try to defend it. I am a convert to the LDS church, joined in a communist Poland where proselyting of LDS religion was forbidden. Yes i did serve a two year voluntary mission in USA. and though I could easily dispute any and all false attacks on any teachings of LDS religion, it would do no good to me or the person who tries to disprove LDS doctrine. The fact of the matter is that God's truth is just that, His truth. It is independent of anything anyone from either side says. It is not on trial. It cannot be put on trial by any of us for it is larger than any of us. It can only be validated to each individual by God, so bringing whatever preacher of tv prophet to this would do you no good!!! As a matter of fact we are on trial. We are being tested here what we will do with that truth. Having said that i don't have to say anything else, but it will be a very interesting and fun day when at some point in all of our ETERNAL existence all of us here will be placed before God and Jesus Christ and this dialogue would resume. I hope I get to be there just to see the reaction on the faces of all those who are now or ever will try to dispute the teachings of The Church or Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I hope you will be reminded then of what you are reading right now and of what you have said. I can't wait for that day, because it will be a great party for me to attend. Enough said, go on what else do you have?

  • Dan Boothe June 29, 2012 at 10:06 AM

    This artical is typical of somebody trying to discount members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints not only by calling them "Mormons." but questioning the things they say they believe by saying they mean something different to them. The part that I feel needs the most attention is the fact that you said "This raises the troubling question for Mormons of why Jesus even had to die" despite your inclusions of a few passages in the book of Mormon, it is obvious you did very little research before writing this article. If you had even spent the time to look up our most basic beliefs you would have run across the 13 articles of faith which would have taken you less than a minute to read and given you the answer to your question. Here is a link to them http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html if you really want to know why we believe we need the Savior Jesus Christ, here is an in depth talk about it by a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. http://soundcloud.com/8cab5e5b/the-meaning-of-the-atonement It actually sounds like you got most of what you are saying from a disgruntled former member of the church, who like most former members will twist and mince words to find a way to live without feeling any guilt for whatever behavior they wish to justify. I just hope people who read your article will do a little more research than you did and on the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints website. Here is the link www.lds.org/ I have two suggestions to anyone looking for more information. One, I would recommend not getting your "facts" from a former member of the church or guy you met who says he is a member, even though he may be, he may not be the best example of what a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is suppose to be. They have officail missionaries that will teach you, you just ask. The second is to try to ignore people who argue all the time. Here is a scripture form the Book of Mormon on the subject. The truth of it should be fairly obvious. Jesus said, "He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another."

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 10:35 AM

    EARTH TO BE A CELESTIAL SUN. It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world. I do not believe the Lord has any such thing in his plan. The Lord lives in "everlasting burnings" we are informed. President Brigham Young has said that this earth when it is celestialized will shine like the sun, and why not?

    "If the people could fully understand this matter," he said, "they would perceive that it is perfectly reasonable and has been the law of all worlds. And this world, so benighted at present, and so lightly esteemed by infidels, as observed by Brother Clements, when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the Son. It will not then be an opaque body as it now is, but it will be like the stars of the firmament, full of light and glory; it will be a body of light. John compared it, in its celestialized state, to a sea of glass."

    Doctrines of Salvation Vol. 1 pp 88-89 Joseph Fielding Smith

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 10:38 AM

    Brigham Young, second LDS Prophet, said, "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question about it; it was not made in vain" (J. of D., Vol. XIII, p. 271). Young also said, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Ibid., p. 95). This "scripture" about men on the moon as well as the sun by Brigham Young ought to raise eyebrows about Brigham Young's inspired messages.

    Oliver B. Huntington, a devout LDS contemporary of Joseph Smith, said that Smith taught, "The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally; near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph (Smith) the Seer, and he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see" (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. II, p. 166). That is not what the astronauts found when they went to the moon!

  • Patti June 29, 2012 at 10:46 AM

    Ivanhoe: "If the Mormons could pull there deception with Impunity they would debate. But since there getting caught lying they have ran, like little coakroaches when the light is shined on them"

    Nope, not true at all. The plain and simple truth is, our leaders admonish us not to argue and cause contention with others and that's what debate brings about. Debate is not discussion but just a forum to bash & discredit others and their beliefs as is being done on this site. Like Dan Boothe posted above - Jesus said, "He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another."

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 10:54 AM

    ALL EXALTED MEN BECOME GODS. To believe that Adam is a god should not be strange to any person who accepts the Bible Doctrines of Savation Vol. 1 page 97

    Patty, that's strange when Paul tells us to contend for the Faith, but then Christianity can not be refuted while Mormonism is completely bankrupt

    Jude 1

    1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: 2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

  • R. June 29, 2012 at 11:19 AM

    I don't see that Ivanhoe is arguing here. Really all I have seen is passages from the Bible that back up the Christian faith. And quotes directly from your prophets and other church authority along with passages from your books of faith. Those say a lot about what the LDS believe. This quote by Joseph Smith alone backed up with the scriptures warning of a false Jesus and a falst gospel is all I need to see the truth.
    "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) -JOSEPH SMITH

    I understand that all men have a sinful nature, but a true prophet of God would NEVER claim to be better than Jesus Christ.

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7).
    2."Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father" (Gospel Principles, pg.57).
    3."[Jesus Christ] was willing to make payment because of his great love for mankind, and he was able to make payment because he lived a sinless life and because he was actually, literally, biologically the Son of God in the flesh" (Messages for Exaltation, pp.378-379).
    4."God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh ...The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father ...He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct" (The Seer, Orson Pratt, pg. 158).
    5."The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 8:115).
    6."...I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses, Heber C. Kimball, 8:211).
    7."Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father ...Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body" (Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, Joseph F. Smith, pp.125,126).
    8."Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
    9."Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg.547).
    (all quotes found at this site: http://www.bible.ca/mor-god-had-sex-with-mary.htm;

  • Patti June 29, 2012 at 1:44 PM

    Since you don't believe in the LDS faith why bother with it? Why not just ignore it & live your own faith & your own life the way you'd like & leave us alone do the same? We don't tear you down or tell you you're sinful for the way you believe.

  • R. June 29, 2012 at 2:43 PM

    I know personally I want to talk to my family and friends who are in the LDS church about Jesus because I care about their salvation. I will always stand up and profess my love of Jesus Christ because everyone needs to know what He offers. I want everyone to have the same type of relationship that I have with my Lord Jesus because I know what it's like not to have a relationship with Him. I once was indifferent to the fact but once as I accepted Him into my heart, I was truely born again. Christians, unlike the LDS do not believe that salvation is available to most everyone, excluding a few who have committed certain sins. We only believe those who have accepted Jesus into their hearts and live can go to heaven.No matter what sin they previously commited, they will be forgiven once Jesus enters their life. By doing this you confess that there is only ONE God, Jesus is God. He died for every sin. This Jesus is the one of the New testiment, unchanged. I used to think it was best to just ignore it but God has put this issue on my heart and I have influenced 3 people to think about where they are putting their faith, they began to truely seek God and ask questions. The truth was revealed to them and now they are saved thanks to Jesus. Even just helping one person to stop and THINK about their faith and let Jesus do the rest in their hearts is wonderful. There are a lot of people in this world who need Jesus. I just want to help bring them to Him, in anyway. Sitting back and ignoring the fact will not change anything.

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 2:51 PM

    Patti June 29, 2012 at 1:44 PM

    Since you don't believe in the LDS faith why bother with it? Why not just ignore it & live your own faith & your own life the way you'd like & leave us alone do the same? We don't tear you down or tell you you're sinful for the way you believe.

    If Mormons followed that example and didn't try decieving Christians with their missionary programs that only give Iceberg details I would agree

    The Iceberg Principle
    Public Relation message of Mormonism is designed to attract the general public by offering "everlasting happiness and fulfillment." Then the missionaries are sent to ask, "do you want to know more about the gospel of Jesus Christ?" But just as the iceberg is about 10% visible to the eye, so the Mormon missionary lessons represent only a small, visible part of Mormon doctrine.
    The missionary stratagem of withholding information is exposed by quoting page 9 of the "stake mission handbook" published by the Mormons:
    "The standard missionary discussions, when they are taught by the spirit, lead investigators carefully and systematically to a knowledge of these truths. Other portions of the gospel should generally be left to instruction and study after baptism. The Lord has instructed ,'And of tenets thou shall not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea , even the Holy Ghost' ( Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 )
    It is evident that Mormon authorities are commanding an inadequate representation of Mormonism by intentional concealment of their beliefs. this designed omission acts as a virtual fraud on the individual, manipulating then into the waters of baptism and membership into Mormonism. Mormon authorities feel justified in this deception because they believe they are "legal administrators" of the "only true church on the face of the earth" and, therefore, know what is best for all mankind.

  • Solomon Urriola June 29, 2012 at 6:32 PM

    I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. WE ARE CHRISTIANS and for me the most important thing is what God thinks about me. I do not care what an ignorant thinks concerning my personal Christian belief.
    Jesus Christ is my personal Saviour & Redeemer and the only way to return to my Heavenly Father. God lives and Jesus Christ lives, they are real and the Holy Ghost testifies of the Father and the Son to the children of men.
    However, this type of article is a waste of time. This is just plain stupidity. A very simple rule I give unto you, live and let live.
    "In view of the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity".
    A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top . Have a nice day.

  • Rachel June 29, 2012 at 8:58 PM

    Solomon,
    I know that the LDS do not like to be pegged as non christians. But would you, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints consider me a Latter Day Saint? I have never been baptized under LDS authority. I do not attend an LDS church, I do not tithe to the LDS church. I was not married in an LDS temple. I have never done any type of temple work. Am I a later day saint?
    This is the same logic that I take when I think of the LDS as Christians. I do not consider the Latter Day Saint a Christian. LDS do not consider the Bible to be the only true word of God. This leads to many different beliefs that are not taught in the Bible. Just to name a few.... The LDS do not believe that there is only one God of all existence. LDS do not believe in the trinity-one godhead.LDS believe that a person has the ability to become a god in the next life if they live according to the requirements of the LDS church.

    However, if you know what the Bible says and that LDS core beliefs do not line up with God's word...and you still chose to be part of the Later Day Saints, that is completly a choice. That is the gift of free will. In the end, every single one of us is going to be held accountable for our choices when we come face to face with Jesus.

  • Hope June 29, 2012 at 10:41 PM

    Solomon,

    First off, Joseph Smith proclaimed that all Christians were an abomination. Many leaders of the LDS religion have made the same statements throughout time. Furthermore, mormons deny the main theology of Bibical Christianity. They have somehow managed to twist, chop, turn backwards and inside out, everything the one and only true God says in his word. Isn't that exactly what the devil likes to do with anything that God says is right and good?! The devil and his fallen angels believed in Christ but that does not make them Christian. Just because your church has the name of Jesus Christ in it, does not make it Christian, It is yet another deception to pull people in. Live and let live must be a saying they teach you in church to use against Christians. I have heard that out of a mormon's mouth before. You all sound programmed...like a bunch of robots that can't think for yourselves.

  • Ivanhoe June 29, 2012 at 11:49 PM

    EXPLANATION BY THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH

    Speaking on the meaning of the Savior's words to Peter concerning the rock, the Prophet Joseph Smith has said:

    John was a priest after the order of Aaron, and he held keys of the priesthood, and came forth preaching repentance and baptism, for the remission of sins, but at the same time cries out, "There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose," and Christ came according to the words of John, and he was greater than John, because he held the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood and kingdom of God, and had before revealed the priesthood to Moses; yet Christ was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness; and Jesus in his teaching says: "Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."]What rock? Revelation .(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 273-74. )

    So why didn't the Mormons call their religion " The Church of Revelations of Latterday Saints"

  • Doug June 30, 2012 at 11:33 AM

    For by Grace are you Saved, NOT by WORKS least any man should boast. We cannot work ourselves into heaven, none of us would deserve to be there. Has the Mountain Meadows Massacre of innocent Christians ever been fully explained, let alone an formal apology by LDS.

  • S Keeney June 30, 2012 at 11:33 AM

    Though most Mormons who follow the LDS version are generally nice and sincere people, that in no way makes them Christian. They claim to be Christian but follow an organization which system denies one or more of the central essential orthodox doctrines of the Christian Faith. Though they may try to re define their terms they deny just some of the following essential christian doctrines . For example they deny the unity of god. Unity means "oneness". God is one being in contrast to many beings. There is only one God (monotheism) in contrast to may gods (polytheism) which the LDS holds to.They deny as seen in the book Mormon Doctrine the Tri-unity of God.They deny the doctrine of Christ's Virgin birth as the Church fathers have stated it, not how they interpret the term. The LDs also deny the absolute deity of Jesus. They argue that Jesus was begotten as the first spirit child of the Father(Elohim) and one of His unnamed wives.Yet they seem to be unaware of versus in the Old Testament where Jehovah and Elohim are seen to be one and the same God. In Isaiah 40:3 both Jehovah and Elohim are used prophetically Jesus Christ.

  • Charles June 30, 2012 at 1:22 PM

    Contending for the faith,or defending the faith(1 Peter 3:15),no different than what Paul did(Philippians 1:15-18).As followers of Christ Jesus it doesnt matter if it's Islam who claims there god is the same as our one true G_d of Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob,or Jehovah Witness's who claim Jesus is Michael the archangel,ect..,or Mormonism which claims to be Christian,and yes some of the Christian religions have watered down Truth,but at least within those my brothers and sister's in the Lord are allowed to speak out Truth without losing a tongue or worse.The world would have us be quiet,sit back and say nothing.Thats not why we are here,were here to proclaim the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and defend that truth.For those who say they are the same,Paul makes it clear in Galatians 1:1-9 and he stamps it with an exclamation point,he repeats it vs. 8,9.We are warned of those coming in amongst us who are not of us.So no, we are not tearing apart other religions,just defending Christ's Gospel,scripture,old and new. Ivanhoe,well done and Sean McDowell.

  • G June 30, 2012 at 2:49 PM

    From Webster's Dictionary.
    Definition of CHRISTIAN
    1a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL ONE ANOTHER WHAT WE BELIEVE. GROW UP AND GET OVER IT. LET GOD FIGURE OUR THE REST.

    Can we now PLEASE get on with life?

  • Jerry Clevenger June 30, 2012 at 2:55 PM

    I would say Mormons are just as much "Christian" as any other "nominal " Christian group. They don't keep the Christian Sabbath which Jesus plainly said He was "Lord of". The majority of "nominal" Christian groups remain under papal authority, in that they all observe the first day of the week and keep holidays originated in the catholic church rather than the biblical Holy Days outlined in Leviticus 23.

  • Shaefer June 30, 2012 at 3:19 PM

    Mr. McDowell might not be a scholar of Mormonism. Nor am I. For all I know, he has completely misquoted these passages from the Book of Mormon and the Articles of Faith. Be that as it may, his basic premise (which is, I think, that the teachings of Mormonism excludes itself from mainstream Christianity) is valid.

    Galatians 1:8 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

    Leave aside the Mormon theology in the article. Can a member of the LDS church deny that there are stark differences between Mormon theology and that of Paul? Isn't one of the basic claims of the LDS church that the Bible has been distorted, and the Book of Mormon is a necessary complement to the Bible? If some of the things said above are true, then the teachings of Joseph Smith are, while maybe not explicitly contradictory to the Gospel of the Bible, they are in fact different, which, according to Paul, is grounds for God's curse. The Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not the same Jesus of the Gospel.

  • Rachel June 30, 2012 at 3:21 PM

    I agree with you Charles,
    Every Biblical Christian I know would be willing to lay down their life for their faith in Jesus Christ. If I was thrown in prison to be put to death for my Christian faith, I would continue to speak of Jesus and what the bible teaches untilt the trigger is pulled. I know that I would open my eyes to Jesus and get to spend forever worshiping Him. Any Christian I know would do the same. Did Joseph Smith do that? NO. Instead he killed two men in the process. I think he knew after his judgement in front of Jesus that he would be in a much, much hotter place. Defend the Christian faith and sing out Jesus' name forever!

  • J.R. June 30, 2012 at 3:40 PM

    Shaefer,
    You make a very good point. The LDS cannot ignore the fact that a lot of what they teach is drastically different, sometimes opposite from what the Bible teaches. Denying that would be denying their faith. Even if these Book of Mormon passages are taken out of context as they say they are... Galatians 1:8-9 should not be ignored. I would not want to tango with God's curse.

  • Barry June 30, 2012 at 4:14 PM

    Recently a renowned non-LDS professor indicated that one thing you'll find out about Mormons is that they don't argue. At least those who truly understand their relationship with God have absolutely no reason to argue. We know there's always going to be adversity - it's as much a part of life as 1,2,3. For people who are genuinely interested in coming to Jesus Christ, we patiently take the time to teach them from all sources of truth. If argument ensues, it's source is usually by the influence of the master adversary. So, as a rule, we disengage, and continue being friends with all of God's children. The scriptures are replete with the admonition to pray and ask God what things are true, and if you ask with real intent, having faith in Jesus Christ, he manifests the truth of it to you thru the power of the Holy Ghost irrespective of who you are. You're simply not on a solid foundation if your convictions do not rest on divine approval. I needn't argue that - put it to the test. You have God's promise, not mine.

  • Jordan June 30, 2012 at 5:00 PM

    I must second what Barry said... Arguing is pointless when one has a personal relationship with God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I know true doctrine because I have studied the scriptures and asked God to witness it to me by the power of the Holy Ghost. People who mix scripture with the philosophies of men are being deceived. If you sincerely seek Jesus Christ you will read his teaching from the Bible and the Book of Mormon and ask Almighty God to witness the truth to you by his personal messenger, the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will teach you want man cannot!

    God Bless!

  • Ivanhoe June 30, 2012 at 5:58 PM

    But the angel Moroni told Joseph Smith that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, … that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants.” (See JS—H 1:34.) Furthermore, in the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord says several times that the Book of Mormon does contain the fulness of the gospel. (See D&C 20:9, D&C 27:5, D&C 35:17, D&C 42:12.)

    teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon or Bible.
    1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
    2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
    3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
    4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
    5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
    6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
    7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
    8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
    9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
    10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
    11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
    12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
    13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
    14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
    15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
    16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
    17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
    18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
    19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
    20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
    21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

  • jeff sherrod June 30, 2012 at 6:23 PM

    joseph smith was a man who hated christianity so bad that he invented his own faith.

  • Stanley June 30, 2012 at 7:50 PM

    Mormons are NOT Christians They chose to add to the Bible; this is condemned in
    Revelation 22:19-20 -- "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
    Very clearly, Mormons "Book of..." adds, they say to God's Holy Scripture. The above direct warning is given to those who purposefully distort the message in the Holy Bible.
    Mormons MUST totally deny ALL of their book and ask our Savior, Jesus to come into their hearts, believe only in the true Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The must then be baptized according to Scripture.

  • Stephen Truesdale June 30, 2012 at 8:18 PM

    While I agree this article seems to support a,"once saved always saved theology,"which would mean you might as well throw the book of James out I have to question how anyone can call Mormons a Christian?Mormons do not believe in the Trinity therefore they are not Christians.Mormons can be respected for living their faith to the fullest and knowing that you have to do more then just being saved in a one time experience of accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.While accepting Christ is part of what's needed James reminds us that,"faith without works is dead."Mormons also believe in different levels of Heaven with the highest reserved only for Mormons.They also believe that they can get Baptized so Christians like me don't go to Hell meaning they can take my place in being Baptized in the Mormon Church so at least I probably won't go to Hell.How can anyone believe that a Faith that has only been around since 1840 or so is the true Religion.Any Mormon reading this I will admit my hats off to you for at least living your faith,being a true Conservative,taking care of your own,and not being fake.In fact,their Tithing system has some of the most faithful people who tithe and if you ever have a financial crisis you can draw money against what you have already tithed.In this sense the rest of us Christians can learn alot from a good and sound tithing system.

  • Darell Outhier June 30, 2012 at 10:59 PM

    When people have a jigsaw puzzle of different pieces, you cannot take one puzzle piece from another's picture and condemn it because it doesn't fit or match in their own big picture. If they are being honest in understanding what they critique, they would strive to see the big picture as the pieces fit in that picture.

    Faith and works is an example. The author stated that Mormons "earn" salvation with works. That is the furthest from the truth, yet it would appear that way when trying to fit "the necessity" of works as a doctrine in the puzzle scheme of their faith.

    In our faith, good works are absolutely essential, but they do not have salvific properties, nor do they provide any means of value to barter with. They simply qualify us for salvation according to the standards that Jesus Himself established. A parent may offer a child a free car, but place the stipulation that they must take a strict and rigid driving course to receive it. And they could require a perfect score, an A+ from that course. The child (16 years +) may repeat that course as many times as needed, which course is also paid for by the parent. The car is already paid for and waiting in the garage, but no keys are presented until the child is fully prepared to assume that responsibility of piloting that power. The purpose of such qualification is obvious, the parent loves the child and does not want any harm to come to the child or others for poor driving skills.

    I can clearly see how in the resurrection, that if we misuse our wonderful bodies here in this life, and fail to bridle our passions for prideful and selfish purposes, we would do the very same thing with an eternal and glorified body. Nothing can pay for what God has provided and offered to us. Yet we must prove worthy to receive it.

  • Darell Outhier July 1, 2012 at 1:16 AM

    May I ask a simple question to my Christian friends here? If the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God, as stated in 1 Corinthians, and Christianity has divided into a multitude of denominations because they understand the Bible differently, which one of them is understanding by/with the Spirit? (Keep in mind that the Bible expressly prohibits divisions.) The Church of Jesus Christ, the one He established, has the understandings by the Spirit. Which church is that today?

  • Darell Outhier July 1, 2012 at 3:52 AM

    Correction in wording to my first post above:
    When people have a jigsaw puzzle of different pieces, you cannot take one puzzle piece from another's picture and condemn it because it doesn't fit or match in (your) own big picture.

  • Mitzi July 1, 2012 at 7:04 AM

    Darell Outhier-

    Yes,while there are different denominations of Christian churches, TRUE CHRISTIANITY differs from all ORGANIZED religions! It isn't a religion, it is the following and obeying of JESUS CHRIST. Its foundation is solely, JESUS CHRIST! Jesus came to abolish religion because it binds people up. Everything that is organized, has rules and rituals, installed by a MAN. Chrisitianity came about not because of a man, but because of Jesus Christ, and true Christians believe he is the one and ONLY GOD, not just a man. Most organized religions are founded due to some dead prophet (or false prophet). My God,Jesus Christ, is alive! Christians don't consider a church an actual building. It is the body (saved people) that belong to Christ. People become children of God, and brothers and sisters in Christ, once they have accepted the true Jesus Christ, of the Holy Bible, as their savior. We were not physically created by a God, with flesh, and then sent down to earth as spirit babies. We came down through a line of God's creation, Adam. Jesus is God's only BEGOTTEN son!! Please mormons,look up the word begotten. That should clue you in right there, that if Jesus was the only begotten son, we are not made from fleshly relations by a God and his wife. The God you believe in is obviouly not the same God spoken of in the Holy Bible. All true Christians go off the theology of the Bible and the Bible alone...Therefore, they all believe JESUS IS GOD! If anything contradicts or deviates from God's word, it is not to be trusted. You can't try to fit a puzzle piece in, that contradicts or deviates from God's word, or your puzzle is going to be one messed up confusing looking puzzle. BTW-Jospeph Smith established and founded your church, not the Jesus Christ of the holy bible. You use the name of Jesus Christ in your church's name, but it's sad that it's not the same Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and only makes your church that much more deceiving. This is why true Christian's are in an uproar about your entire man made religion. We know that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet of God, but instead,was working againt God to deceive and lead souls down the wide path. Please seek the one and only true God.

    -In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ. "No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times" (June 20, 1998, <http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_church?dn98&9806210091>).

    http://www.watchman.org/lds/gbhjesus.htm

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 8:27 AM

    Laws, Laws, Laws
    In stark contrast to Christianity's emphasis on God's grace, Mormonism glorifies law.
    Laws provide the way for the Saint to grow, progress, and obtain happiness ... Although God's laws are exact and immovable, they are revealed and given to mankind for one specific purpose - to bring to pass their ultimate joy . .. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that all blessings are predicated upon laws and that if one desires a particular blessing, one must abide by the law that guarantees that blessing ... God has said that no one can come unto him except by his laws. Doctrine And Covenants Student Manual, pp. 393,394.
    Rules, laws, commands, obligations, restrictions, 'discouragements', regulate every aspect of Mormon life:
    I would like for us to dig a bit deeper into this eternally important question about why a body is so important. Ultimately the answer affects everything we do: what we think, how we act, where we go, what we eat, what we drink, and what we wear and how we look. . .
    Our physical bodies indeed are temples of God. Consequently, you and I must carefully consider what we take into our temple, what we put on our temple, what we do to our temple, and what we do with our temple. Ensign, September 2001, p. 16. (emphasis added)
    Mormons are presented with an unending list that includes dos and don't about food, drink, Sabbath law, fasting, keeping a two year supply of food and water, required child bearing, required wearing of sacred temple clothing, required marriage, required tithing, proper and improper associations, appropriate clothing & hair length, church activities, proper and improper entertainment, missionary work, appearance of one's home, filling calls to church positions...
    The more rules they keep, the closer to holiness they believe themselves to be. Therefore, Mormons are obsessed by laws and rules. Mormons debate whether it is right to drink soda that has caffeine, or to take off your temple underwear for a game of basketball. Even things as insignificant as pierced ears are covered by official church commentary from the president! (one set allowed for women - but not two, not allowed for men):
    The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also “the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes.” We do not, however, take any position “on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings”—one pair. President and Living Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, November 2000, p. 50.
    The sacrifice of following rules for the sake of following rules becomes more important than the motivation of the heart. This is the opposite of what Jesus asked for when he said "go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’" Matthew 9:13.

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 8:31 AM

    First century Christians in Colosse were faced with claims similar to those of the LDS church. False teachers sought to impose numerous laws, restrictions and rules on those who followed them. These teachers looked down with lofty scorn on those who held to the simple gospel. They positioned themselves as wiser, more sophisticated Christians.
    This emphasis on law-keeping, like the teaching of Mormonism, fails to honor Christ by acknowledging his fullness and all-sufficiency as our Savior (sole procurer of eternal life). This type of thinking lies at the heart of every non-Christian religion and, all to often, is found attempting to invade the Christian Church itself. Saint Paul responds to the assertions of the Colosse false teachers with stinging ridicule:
    Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Colossians 2:20-23
    This is the burning building, out of which, we are to pull Mormons!
    Mormons hear three messages with non-stop repetition. First, that their progression towards eternal life is dependant on their own efforts. Second, that it is possible to work your way through worthiness; Jesus has shown them how. Jesus is their example, not their substitute. However, by far the most prevalent message is the simple, continual, exhortations to "Be good", "Be worthy", "Be perfect". Rarely are Heavenly Father or Jesus presented as sources of help. At best, they are pictured as being on the sidelines cheering them on.
    Knowing that becoming perfect through Christ is eventually possible and that the Savior is "pulling for us" is a compelling thought. Ensign, February 1991, p. 11.

    Mormonism is the restored religion of the Pharisees co-mingled with Paganism

  • Gina July 1, 2012 at 8:46 AM

    The best thing you can do for Mormons is to pray for the spirit of deceit to be taken away from them. They have it because when they are made to be guilty of not praying hard enough about the book of mormon as being true, so they start praying very hard for the burning feeling in their chest, that the book of mormon will be the truth to them, then they invite a spirit of deception, and good feelings come into their heart. They live by a false sense of security, and a feel good feeling, that is not from God, and they think they are right for what they believe in. Just because something feels good, doesn't make it right. What they need is a relationship with Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and get rid of spirit of religion and deceit from out of their hearts. They would be so much more happier if they were living in the truth instead of a lie. God help them!

  • Gina July 1, 2012 at 8:48 AM

    To Christians His gospel is found in the Holy Bible (not another book needed). Jesus was God in the flesh (This can be found by reading through John in the bible) that died on the cross to be a sacrifice for the removal of all sins of those that believe and ask for his death sacrifice to be the payment for their sins. If people have a different gospel than that, then they are deceived and have not accepted his sacrifice. We must not add anything to his sacrifice on the cross or take anything away from it. Those people that are not fully accepting Jesus death for their sins as good enough, will have to make payment for their own sins then. Some good people are going to be in for a shock, when they realize that they never accepted Jesus Christ's sacrifice, which is the only payment for all their sins. We must have complete payment, because the bible says the wages of sin is death( Romans 6-23). Just one sin that we commit,has the penalty of death, which means eternal separation from God. All it takes is belief on our part in a holy one and only God named Jesus that died for all our sins. We cannot do anymore than that. To live in the grace of God is the most relaxing and peaceful restful place ever. It does not have to have a good physical feeling to it, but it has the most confident and blessed assurance and peace of mind to it that feels our void within that was created by God to filled up with his love.

  • Gina July 1, 2012 at 9:02 AM

    Mormons need to understand that it is a relationship that Jesus wants with people, he doesn't want them in a religion, following man made doctrine, rules, and rituals. Joseph Smith said all religions were messed up, so he was told by God to make a new one. Well, that makes no sense. Why replace religion with religion when all we need is a relationship with Jesus to be fulfilled. Religion tears people away from Jesus. It takes the mind of people off of the grace of God and his sacrifice for their sins. It leads people down a path widely followed by people and away from the path that is followed by few people. The Latin word from which the English word "religion" is derived means "to bind up." Jesus did not come to bind us up in rules and regulations or rituals of devotion, but to set us free.

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 1:10 PM

    Gina July 1, 2012 at 9:02 AM

    Mormons need to understand that it is a relationship that Jesus wants with people, he doesn't want them in a religion,

    Whoa nelly.....

    One of their so-called Apostle said the goal is not to have a personal relationship wih Jesus



    Our Relationship with the Lord
    BRUCE R. MCCONKIE
    Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.

    We worship the Father and him only and no one else.
    We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.


    http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

  • Rachel July 1, 2012 at 4:33 PM

    Well said, Gina. There have been many mormons come out of the church and accept Jesus into their lives. They are completly changed after, as we all are. :) Keep praying people! I've seen more people come out of the mormon church in the last couple years than I ever have before. It's amazing what God does. Always pray for them.

    Has anyone else seen this video?
    http://youtu.be/G1mFdO1wB08

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 7:06 PM

    Former Mormons

    http://sacredgrovesonline.org/videos/unveiling_grace.htm

    The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah.
    Author: Spencer W. Kimball
    Source: Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball
    Page: 33
    Lucifer AKA Satan and Jehovah AKA Jesus

  • kaycie July 1, 2012 at 7:47 PM

    Thank you so much for sharing that link, Ivanhoe. This hits very close to home.

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 8:34 PM

    Your Welcome, I shared that with one of my daughters friends who came out of Mormonism and she was very emotional about her experience too .

  • Ivanhoe July 1, 2012 at 10:39 PM

    Racism on Mormons on website

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a027c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 12:26 AM

    Mitzi, you brought in many points and issues. They are leaves and branches and create innumerable tangents and sub topics. The root is where I wish to focus, and when understood, the leaves and branches will follow.

    The root issue I pursue is how we obtain understanding of the things of God, and if I may, I will use your statement below to illustrate.
    You said:
    "If anything contradicts or deviates from God's word, it is not to be trusted. You can't try to fit a puzzle piece in, that contradicts or deviates from God's word, or your puzzle is going to be one messed up confusing looking puzzle."

    Remember, we know that scripture states that the things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Otherwise, it is the spirit of man that produces the understanding. "God's Word" is obviously included as "the things of God" and must be understood with the Spirit's direct influence. When you say "If anything contradicts or deviates from God's word," you assume that the person making the evaluation has understood the Word of God by the Spirit. Now that brings us back to my original question. Who in today's Christianity is understanding by the Spirit, when there has been perpetual and exponential divisions over understanding the Bible?

    Your attempts to explain "True Christianity" fall short, because to obey and follow Jesus requires a correct understanding of what Jesus taught. And Jesus Himself often warned that only those who have ears that hear, and eyes that see, will comprehend. In other words, they must understand by the Spirit of God, and not by the spirit of man. TRUE CHRISTIANITY is when people become one in the Word of God, as a result of listening to the Same Spirit.

    When people understand the same passages of God's Word differently, they are not listening to the same Spirit. How am I to know that your understanding is of the Spirit? (A fair question, since your advice and my eternal welfare are at play here.)

    Now, in my faith, the puzzle pieces are not put in place by the individual, except for the first five. They are obvious shapes and we know where they go. There are four corners and one round circle. Putting them in place is to live the principles they teach. Without living them, we will never see the picture, only the scattered pieces. The round circle piece is Jesus Christ, and that is the center of our lives and the picture. The four corners are Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance which Jesus made possible, Baptism as a covenant to obey and follow Jesus, and Receiving the Holy Spirit, which Jesus sends to those who apply the other three corners.

    Continued.

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 12:47 AM

    Continued ...
    The rest of the puzzle pieces will be shown where and how they are to be placed by the Holy Spirit, one at a time, and on God's time table, not on our agenda or by earning any theological degrees. Or as scripture describes, line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. THAT is how and when the leaves and branches I mentioned above will fall into place.

    I cannot debate these things, because debate is of the spirit of man. I know they are true because they were not made known to me until after I asked of God, and He showed me what things in my heart had to be cleansed and refined before they would be revealed to me. It wasn't always a pleasant experience, but after each line and each precept, the understanding I received was always followed by a peace and joy that nothing in this world could reproduce.

    Why would anyone suggest that I toss this Pearl of Great Price? Only because they have not experienced this kind of understanding that makes one's heart and bosom burn from within.

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 2:10 AM

    The bible is very clear on what God commands. Our God is not a God of confusion.There are blatant contradictions between the Holy Bible and the D&C and Great Pearl of Price. Any person that can merely read can figure this out. All Christians, whom are truly saved, and have asked Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible to come into their hearts, and to be their own personal savior, do listen to and our guided by ONE spirit-(holy spirit) We believe in ONE God that is made up of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit. Have you ever thought that the feeling burning in your bosom could potentially be caused by a spirit of deception and not the Holy ghost? Not all good feelings come from God. There is a spirit of deceit working on overtime to lead people down the wide path. If Satan knows your heart, and knows the holy spirit is not in there, he can deceive you!!!!!! That is why it is so hard for Mormons to see the truth! Truth is hate to those that hate truth!
    If you can't find absolutely any evidence of places, people, or material goods spoken about in a book, would you still believe it to be true? What about if it is factually and historically wrong as well...It has the wrong culture, the wrong plants, the wrong animals, the wrong technology, and the wrong languages. Even archeologists and anthropologists say there is a major problem with this book. There is a reason why it is labeled fiction while the Bible is labeled non-fiction. Faith is great but complete and total blind faith is not. Good feelings can be deceiving. What happens if you don't know what you don't know...? Then what you do know, you like...

    -The heart is deceitful above all things. Jeremiah 17:9

    -Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your MIND. Luke 10:27

    http://www.bible.ca/mor-contradictions.htm

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 2:47 AM

    Mitzi,
    "The bible is very clear on what God commands..." only to those who understand the Bible by the Spirit of God. If people read the Bible by the spirit of man, then nothing is clear. Is that clear? Do you agree?

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 3:06 AM

    Darell,

    You have a way with twisting very simply stated things all up into a ball of confusion...TYPICAL! Let me tell you this, I know for sure that I have the true Jesus (holy spirit) inside my heart. I know where I am going to go when I die, I have no doubts. Jesus is the only Shepherd that leads me.These things you speak of are things that are put in your head by your church, which was by the way, founded by a MAN! How do you know for 100% sure that Joseph Smith was not led by the spirit of a deceitful man? For one,I would like to know how Joseph Smith ran a couple miles with 200 lb golden plates, while being chased down by people, and managed to get away?! There is no point in arguing with you. I suggest that you pray to seek the real God and truth. I said it before and I will say it again. .The Truth = ONE God, ONE Lord (Jesus is God) ONE Faith, ONE Gospel and ONE true church (which is the Body of Christ).That is all I need to say.

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 3:51 AM

    Mitzi,
    I have no desire to deceive or to be deceived. I want only to love others and to know and share truth. I attended a memorial yesterday at Biola for a good friend. Several people there know me and would assure you that I do not aim to twisting things as you discribed.

    The questions and issues I present are independent of Mormonism, unless I specify otherwise. I strive to discuss things biblically in this type of forum because that is what is accepted here. Yes, things can get complicated and appear to be confusing. Complication is only multiple basics that work together in harmony. That is why I addressed you with a single basic, so we can perhaps identify where the confusion and errors may be hidden.

    So, take your time and consult with people you trust, especially in prayer with God. His promise in James 1:5 is real and applies to all people, regardless of their faith. If you stand for the truth, you will prevail and be able to help those, myself included if I am in the wrong, who are in darkness. Again, debating is the spirit of man. Discussing with the Love of God will bring the desired results.

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 11:36 AM

    Darell,

    I answered your question with a very straight forward answers and you came back at me with a very strange logic...Debating and questioning a man made organized religion is not done so with the "spirit of man." It is called having common sense and logical reasoning. If things do not make sense, or 1+1 does not = 2, then there ought to be some concern. So just how is it that you know when your debating in the spirit of God and not the spirit of man? Once again, I assure you that the burning in your bosom, is not from God, but rather is from Satan. God would not give you good feelings about things that go directly against his word. Please show me a verse in the BIBLE where it states that the things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Or did the "spirit of man" come up with this saying which was done so in your church.
    I will stick with- Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your MIND. Luke 10:27
    Have a nice day!

  • Ivanhoe July 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM

    Don't see much Love in Mormonim

    And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25).


    In his letter written in 1903, Benjamin F. Johnson admitted that "In Missouri we were taught to 'pray for our enemies, that God would damn them, and give us power to kill them.' " Apostle George A. Smith said: "... we were then very pious, and we prayed the Lord to kill the mob" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 107).

    John Taylor emphatically proclaimed in a sermon delivered in the Tabernacle in 1858: "... they were so damnable, mean, and cowardly as to make war on the sick and infirm that could not leave. The poor, miserable, cursed, damned scoundrels, I pray that they may go to hell. [The whole congregation shouted 'Amen']" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 122).

    485


    Heber C. Kimball, first councilor to Brigham Young, often cursed his enemies from the pulpit. He even went so far as to curse the President of the United States. Below are some extracts from his sermons:

    There are men and women in this congregation of that stamp. I wish I had some stones; I want to pelt your cursed heads, for you lie like hell....

    There is a poor curse who has written the bigger part of those lies which have been printed in the States; and I curse him, in the name of Israel's God, and by the Priesthood and authority of Jesus Christ; and the disease that is in him shall sap and dry up the fountain of life and eat him up. Some of you may think that he has not the disease I allude to; but he is full of pox from the crown of his head to the point of its beginning. That is the curse of that man; it shall be so, and all Israel shall say, Amen. [The vast congregation of Saints said, "Amen."] ... May God Almighty curse such men, ... and every damned thing there is upon the earth that opposes this people. I tell you I feel to curse them to-day (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 32).

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 2:28 PM

    Darell,

    You stated, "Remember, we know that scripture states that the things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Otherwise, it is the spirit of man that produces the understanding. "God's Word" is obviously included as "the things of God" and must be understood with the Spirit's direct influence."
    O.K.,this is really bothering me, so I need to be forthright, and explain something to you...You, as a Mormon, and I, as a Christian, have a completely different God. My God of the Holy Bible is and will always be. He is ALPHA on Omega. He had no beginning nor will he have no ending. When you speak of the spirit of God please realize that you have a different God then me. So, your "spirit of God" talk has no significance to me. To be honest, I don't even know as to what God you are referencing. My God was never a man named Adam, who worked his way to Godhood, and earned his way to be a God of our planet. My God did not come from a star/planet Kolob. The God of Mormonism is not the same God as the God of biblical Christianity. It is so plain and simple to see that. Please seek the one and only God of the Holy Bible.

    Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me-Isaiah 43:10.

  • creeksalmon July 2, 2012 at 2:55 PM

    Mitzi Your post reminds me of this song on my Utube account, one great test is worship music.

    LDS worship Joseph Smith Jr " Praise the man" or warfaring man" or their organization, not Alpha and Omega


    http://youtu.be/iHpRlztBUd8

  • Charles July 2, 2012 at 3:31 PM

    Darell, if you are truely searching for truth,which I believe most Mormans are,here is our bible.
    Adam,Eve were created in the image and likeness of G-d.G-d breathed into them Life(Spirit).Gen 1:26/2:7 They were one with G_d,until sin entered in.It was then man became Spiritually dead for G_d cannot,will not allow this. Everyone after Adam,Eve were made in there image and likeness,Spiritually dead.Gen 5:3,separated from the G_d. From that time G_d had a plan for the virgin birth Gen 3:15,her seed,not mans seed.Jesus, who was every bit G_d and every bit man is also called the Word.Jn. 1:1-5,14. The bible is also called the Word of G_d,the bible is all about Jesus, the only One who was to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world,past,present and future,Heb10:14.This He did over 2000yrs ago,its called the finality of the cross.Jn 19:30.He meet the just requirement of the law,which He lived under,sinlessly.What did Jesus say over and over,I am the way and the truth and the LIFE,I am the ressurrection and the LIFE,I have come that they may have abundant LIFE and on and on.Jn 3:3-8 The day of Pentecost,the Spirit came back to man,they began to be Spiritually born again.Rm 10:8-11.Its more than intellectual belief.James 2:19 Even satans demons believe in G_d and they shudder.If you truely are searching for the One true G_d of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob,get into these scriptures and alone with G_d,confess you are a sinner and accept Christ's sacrifice for you and recieve His life in you in the form of the Holy Spirit.Let Him live in you,for you and through you.This is our bible and the end,to let Christ live though us,defending the one true faith.My life in Phoenix,when searching,I was approached by Mormans,Jehovah's,and it was a Christian radio program that got me,it wasnt a head thing,it was a heart thing.Your thinking way to much,keep it simple.We wont be perfect in this world,but we will where my brothers and sisters in Christ are going.To bb absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.2 Cor. 5:6-8

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 4:40 PM

    Well said Charles!!! :)

  • Ivanhoe July 2, 2012 at 5:42 PM

    What Saith Scripture?

    And as always, Mormons ignore the passages which contradict their false theology, that salvation is:

    Eph. 2:9 .... not of works ...
    2 Tim. 1:9 ... not according to our works ...
    Tit. 3:5 ... not by works of righteousness ...
    Rom. 4:5 ... to the one who does not work ...
    Rom. 9:11 ... not by works ...
    Rom. 9:16 ... not of him that runneth ...
    Rom. 11:6 ... no more of works ...


    Matthew 23:
    12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

    Luke 14:
    11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Luke 18:
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 8:35 PM

    Mit\zi, the scripture you inquired about is 1 Cor. 2:11
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Having a completely different God than do I is irrelevant to my question because what I ask could have been asked before Mormonism existed by anyone who might be investigating Christianity. God's Word in the Bible tells us that the things that pertain to Him (your God) are not understood by man/woman, unless His Spirit opens that understanding to that person. An excellent event that illustrates this is when the two disciples on the road to Emmaus were met by the resurrected Lord, and they knew not who He was. Surely these disciples knew the scriptures, and Luke records: "And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

    So, Mitzi (or Charles), my question to you that you have not answered "with a very straight forward answers" or with any answer is still pending. With all the differing interpretations (or understandings) of the Bible, that has spawned so many denominations that you call "one body of believers," which of them has received their understanding by the Spirit of God?

    Mitzi, has your heart ever burned when scripture (or questions that you may have asked of God) was opened to you? A bit harsh to flat out tell me my experience is of Satan, but I can understand where you are coming from. Of course I have considered the fact that Satan can appear as an angel of light and deceive many. The antidote for that, which can 100% shield us from Satan's lies is imbedded in those first five pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, as I explained prior. Please review that post if necessary. Living the principles by applying them in our lives will empower us against Satan's lies. Especially repentance. When we sin, we are subject to our flesh, and Satan can fill us with lies and continue to compound them. When we repent and as we depart from evil, the Holy Spirit takes root in our minds and hearts.

    God is Love, and His Spirit is Love. That Presence cannot enter your heart without your heart feeling that Holy and Loving Spirit. Scripture teaches us that sin causes our hearts to become "past feeling." You quoted previously that our hearts are deceitful, yet scripture also admonishes us to "apply (our) hearts to understanding." The difference is simple. Is the individual engrossed in sin, or is he/she approaching God with faith and repentance, and having made covenants through baptism to obey and follow Jesus Christ? The heart will develop either way, pending the "works" the individual chooses to do, via his free will.

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 8:44 PM

    And by the way Mitzi, the concept of the jigsaw puzzle pieces being placed before greater knowledge and understanding of our Savior is found in Hebrews 5 & 6. In fact, Paul chastises the saints for losing the understanding they once had of Jesus and explains what to do about it as his account continues in chapt. 6.

  • Ivanhoe July 2, 2012 at 9:00 PM

    Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 8:35 PM

    Don't see much Love in Mormonim if God is Love

    And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25).


    In his letter written in 1903, Benjamin F. Johnson admitted that "In Missouri we were taught to 'pray for our enemies, that God would damn them, and give us power to kill them.' " Apostle George A. Smith said: "... we were then very pious, and we prayed the Lord to kill the mob" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 107).

    John Taylor emphatically proclaimed in a sermon delivered in the Tabernacle in 1858: "... they were so damnable, mean, and cowardly as to make war on the sick and infirm that could not leave. The poor, miserable, cursed, damned scoundrels, I pray that they may go to hell. [The whole congregation shouted 'Amen']" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 122).

    Heber C. Kimball, first councilor to Brigham Young, often cursed his enemies from the pulpit. He even went so far as to curse the President of the United States. Below are some extracts from his sermons:

    There are men and women in this congregation of that stamp. I wish I had some stones; I want to pelt your cursed heads, for you lie like hell....

    There is a poor curse who has written the bigger part of those lies which have been printed in the States; and I curse him, in the name of Israel's God, and by the Priesthood and authority of Jesus Christ; and the disease that is in him shall sap and dry up the fountain of life and eat him up. Some of you may think that he has not the disease I allude to; but he is full of pox from the crown of his head to the point of its beginning. That is the curse of that man; it shall be so, and all Israel shall say, Amen. [The vast congregation of Saints said, "Amen."] ... May God Almighty curse such men, ... and every damned thing there is upon the earth that opposes this people. I tell you I feel to curse them to-day (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 32).

  • Ivanhoe July 2, 2012 at 9:20 PM

    ADAM HAD THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

    Some people have the idea that the Ten Commandments were first given by Moses when he directed the children of Israel and formulated their code of laws. This is not the case. These great commandments are from the beginning and were understood in righteous communities in the days of Adam. They are, in fact, fundamental parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the gospel in its fulness was first given to Adam.


    http://gospelink.com/library/document/1672?highlight=4

    How many Christian think Adam had ten commandments ?

  • Jen July 2, 2012 at 9:32 PM

    Personally, I do not have a soft spot for the LDS church in my heart. Formally mromon, I believed what they taught, but I never felt close to God. I felt like He was some far off being that could only really communicate with the prophet. I always felt like I had to come as close to perfect as humanly possible. I began to think about my faith more, not to try to proove it wrong but to proove that these bad feelings I kept having were all for nothing. I asked questions and was told pathetic answers. It made me feel really guilty. I ended up deciding that if God was like this...that I didn't want part of it. I honestly still thought the LDS church was the true church, I just didn't want to be a part of it. I was I guess "agnostic" for several years of my life. Then someone wonderful came into my life and showed me that the God of the LDS church is not the same one of Christianity. He showed me Jesus. I got down on my knees and prayed to let Him into my heart. I am so in love with Jesus today :) God is great and I am saved. God is not some far off being. I have a personal relationship with Him. This is why I do not have such a great opinion of the LDS church. I was lost for so many years of my life. Lied to. I know where I would have gone if I died during that time...and it makes me angry. Thank you Jesus for saving me from hell.

  • Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 9:42 PM

    Ivanhoe, if you wish to discuss the issues or questions I presented, or the basics of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost, I would be happy to share insights. Other topics, such as you posted, are to me distractions to understand the basics, which basics are necessary to understand the many topics you raise. Milk comes before the meat. If I am new to Christianity, you should only present me with the milk. Since I believe that "Mormonism" is Christianity restored, then I should do the same.

    Reviewing your post, it is another Divine miracle that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has survived, besides the immense and intense opposition of devilish mobs, but also the weakness, faults, and immaturity of so many of its past leaders. Not only survived, but thrives. It truly is the stone cut out of the mountain without hands.

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 9:58 PM

    Darell,

    You make everything sound so good but there is still a HUGE problem....Why can't you see that having the right God and the right Jesus has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the true spirit...I agree with you that sin can cause the flesh to be dirty and allow Satan into our lives. I also must say that if a person does NOT have the right God, therefore not having the holy spirit living inside of them, then Satan is able to come in, and easily deceive. Yes, there are different denominations of Christianity, and everyone is on their own personal walk and relationship with the Lord. If they have accepted the biblical Jesus Christ into their hearts then they have the holy spirit living inside of them. Christians believe that the Father, son, holy spirit= all one God. There is only but ONE God.
    When Jesus, in the book of John, echoes the sayings of God in Isaiah, he is clearly applying this "language of deity" to himself as God. It amazes me how Mormonism claims to be the 'restoration" of the true church, but denies Jesus' deity. The pharisees knew what Jesus meant when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM", that is why they wanted to stone Him. Even the apostles all knew that Jesus was God. That is why Thomas said " My Lord, my GOD" to Jesus, and Stephen prayed to Him, and asked Jesus to "receive his spirit", while Stephen was being stoned to death.. ONLY God (not a man) can receive spirits..
    I do know that if someone has the wrong God, wrong Jesus, and a false gospel, then there is no way they can be forgiven of their sins, because they are not asking the right God(Jesus) for forgiveness. Christians believe we must accept Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible as our savior,and ask for forgiveness of sin, and by doing so, this is the only way to heaven. Mormonism puts a false sense of security into people by saying that Jesus paid the price for all sins, and even those that don't accept him, still get into heaven. This is just not true! Jesus died for all of our sins, and yes, heaven is equal opportunity, but we still have to make a choice and choose him to be our personal savior in order to be forgiven. Being a good person is not good enough because what is God's standard of good? There can't be people in the kingdom if they have never asked for forgiveness of sins, and their spirits are dead. When the real Jesus comes into someone's heart, he brings life to their spirit, and they are born again. Let me assure you,there is a hell, and the bible says more people go to hell than to heaven. Mormons just believe the parts of the bible that they want to believe, and then discount the parts that make them uncomfortable, or don't make sense with their religion. BIG MISTAKE!

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 10:10 PM

    We cannot conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are independent Gods, because the Bible says there is ONE God.

    God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well."Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient."

    God works in three ways: God the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. I think for most, it is easy to see that the God the Father (Heavenly Father) is God.The Father is God. (Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1) We need to see that Jesus,the Son, is God as well! Jesus is God from the beginning (John 1: 1-18) Even though they all serve their own separate purposes, they all are connected together to make up ONE..ONLY ONE GOD! There are occasions when God refers to himself in plural terms (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8)

    God the Father put His Seed (the son) directly into VIRGIN Mary. The Bible says that of which is conceived in Mary is from the Holy Spirit. (Matthew chapter 1) She was not impregnated by sex, it was done supernaturally through the Holy Spirit. This Seed(the son), through the Holy Spirit was placed inside of Mary, as it came directly out of the God the Father. Therefore, the Seed (the only begotten Son,Jesus) is the father, and remember, the Father is God as well. While the Flesh/body form of Jesus was created, the Spirit form of Jesus (the son), was not created, it ALWAYS existed (as God). Therefore the spirit of Jesus is completely God.

    Jesus was born from a human virgin Mary,with a body, so he can be referred to as the Son of man. However, Jesus was clearly not like a regular man. Jesus, in his flesh, had his own free will, but remained sinless. Not possible for a human being. We are all born into a sinful nature because we are all descendants from Adam and Eve. We are God's creation and become his children when we are saved. I would like to know what regular man that does not have the strength of God himself, would have been able to do something such as dying on the cross? Jesus put himself on that cross out of love for us. Jesus says“I and the Father are one” (John 10:38, 17:11,21Jesus says“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (John 14:11) . Jesus is the part of God that we can actually see and relate to... Jesus was here on earth to show us that God is a loving God. God revealed himself to us as a loving Father through Jesus Christ! He came down to this corrupted, nasty, sinful earth, to save us!!! God has felt the same emotions as what we as humans feel, and can sympathize with us, for what we have gone through, and what we will go through..What an awesome God we have!

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 10:13 PM

    Continued......I think it is pretty obvious that God is a holy Spirit!The Holy Spirit is God (John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19). I believe the holy spirit is what makes God able to be present EVERYWHERE and know EVERYTHING all at the same time.“I will send the Spirit of truth … for he lives with and will be in you … I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you”. (John 14:17-18, 20) The Holy Spirit draws us to Jesus, than if we ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins, it allows our relationship with God the Father to be restored. When we remove sin from our life, by asking Jesus for Forgiveness, and turning away from the sin, (repenting) that is when we can start to hear God the Father speaking to us! We then can receive his blessings that he has prepared for us! The Holy Spirit has the ability to surround you and pour out onto you. The holy spirit can also live inside you, along with the Son, when you have accepted Jesus into your heart. When Jesus left the earth and went to Heaven, is when the Holy spirit came down to earth, to pour over people. When I worship the Lord with other believers, the Holy Spirit can be felt in the surroundings. I can also feel the Holy Spirit inside of me as well!! It is the most AWESOME feeling ever knowing that God himself is in the presence:)

  • Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 10:14 PM

    Continued....GOD Was the only being that could undo the CURSE OF SIN because he was the ultimate PERFECT/SINLESS sacrifice. However, a body was needed, because only human flesh can actually DIE. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Before Jesus died on the cross for our sins, innocent lambs were sacrificed..ect.. Jesus had to die on that cross, as the perfect sacrifice, in order for us to be forgiven of our sins. When Jesus died on that cross, we were able to defeat the law and curse of the devil's plan, of us all DYING, in our SECOND death, in hell, for all eternity. "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:3-4) "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24) Due to this, we could be washed clean of our sins, simply by asking for forgiveness, and accepting his free gift of grace!"But he was pierced for our transgressions,he was crushed for our iniquities, The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)

    Once you accept Jesus into your heart, start walking with him, and getting his word (the Holy Bible) ingrained into your mind and heart, you will also find that you start to turn away from sinful desires as well! It is an amazing thing! :) The Holy Bible is life's complete owner's manual on how to live right so that you can be a true child of God! Also, Jesus died for us, but in all reality, we are the sinful ones that deserved this punishment, not Jesus... therefore, we owe our entire lives to him. We owe it to Jesus to not abuse his grace, and instead turn our backs on sin, and commit our lives to him!

    "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. John 1:2 The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth. John 1:14 ** The word is Jesus as he has many different names in the bible.

    "There is but one God" COR 8....

  • TRUTH! July 2, 2012 at 10:41 PM

    LDS-Ignorance is not going to be bliss forever! Time is running out, we are near the end times! Find the truth now before it will be too late!

  • Jane July 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM

    I would like to know why Mormons are even on this crusade to convert people to their religion when they state that everyone gets into heaven regardless of what they believe...Also, If there is time after death to work your way into a better standing with God, and move up in heaven by doing works, then what is the point of this life even??? If you are a Mormon, and not working to get into the highest heaven, you may as well just live however the heck you want, right? After all, we all get in....LOL
    Is Mormonism about more seats in the audience and tithings in the bucket? Is this religion even really about God or more so about the social aspect of it all and a man named Joseph Smith? Christian's want to spread the true gospel because they know the fate of those that do not accept the biblical Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Hell is real. People are going to cry out to Jesus on Judgment day, and call him Lord, and he is going to say he never knew them. The bible says that those that believe in another gospel will be accursed and warns about false prophets. I believe it was speaking of Mormonism. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

  • Lil July 3, 2012 at 2:32 AM

    Mitzi July 2, 2012 at 9:58 PM
    I like the point you made here. It is so true. I truely believe that the LDS church is the greatest feat of Satan. It makes me cry...It tears at me everyday. What a terrible thing to decieve people into a false Jesus...we DO have to accept the Jesus of the Bible into our lives. Like JANE said above...if we have a second chance after death, what is the point? It's a nice thought to think, that everyone gets a second chance after this life. But that is the biggest lie...that is Satan stealing souls. :'( I plead to you, Latter Day Saints...you got that right...we ARE in the latter days. Please read the Bible as a child. Start in the New Testament. Seek to know the Biblical Jesus. He will show you the truth. God is so wonderful! I want to see you in heaven, worshiping our Lord forever, whoever is reading this.
    With so much love,
    God bless
    -Your sister in Christ.

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 5:00 AM

    Jane, it would appear that you have been misinformed. Not everyone gets into heaven. Every knee must bend and every tounge must confess that Jesus is the Christ. That is the minimum requirement to enter the lowest degree of heaven. A person must also harmonize with the laws that govern the level, or degree of heaven of which they enter. I fear that we do not understand the significance of governing laws the same, so please do not make instant judgment of what this means. But if you are going to make statements like you did, I assume you want to be correct in what you say. As I illustrated a day or two ago, the pieces of our puzzle will not fit into the picture of your puzzle, and you cannot condemn it for not being of any value because it doesn't fit. If you are fair in your evaluation, you must see how it fits into our big picture, which takes time and no small effort to do so. If you are not willing to make such effort, then it really is not fair to judge our beliefs with such statements.

  • Ivanhoe July 3, 2012 at 8:56 AM

    Darell Outhier July 2, 2012 at 9:42 PM

    Ivanhoe, if you wish to discuss the issues or questions I presented, or the basics of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost, I would be happy to share insights. Other topics, such as you posted, are to me distractions to understand the basics, which basics are necessary to understand the many topics you raise. Milk comes before the meat. If I am new to Christianity, you should only present me with the milk. Since I believe that "Mormonism" is Christianity restored, then I should do the same.

    What you described Mormons call the prepatory gospel,

    One of the answers might be the Fullness of the Gospel means the ones mentioned in articles of faith, however Bruce McConkie says that’s called the preparatory gospel of repentance and of baptism and the remission of sin, and the law of carnal commandments. D&C 84:27

    (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 16.) The fulness of the gospel as contained in the Book of Mormon means that it contains those instructions a person needs to observe in order to be worthy to enter the presence of God in the celestial kingdom.
    The Ensign 09/1985

    http://www.ondoctrine.com/1mormo36.htm

    Why doesn’t the BOM mention most of LDS teachings?
    Like baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, three degrees of glory, that God the Father was a man, plurality of gods, tempory hell, pre-existence of spirits, eternal progression, eternal intelligence, priesthood needed to act for god, plural marriage, polygamy, word of wisdom, secret handshakes etc.

  • Ivanhoe July 3, 2012 at 9:03 AM

    Why doesn’t the BOM mention most of LDS teachings?

    Like baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, three degrees of glory, that God the Father was a man, plurality of gods, tempory hell, pre-existence of spirits, eternal progression, eternal intelligence, priesthood needed to act for god, plural marriage, polygamy, word of wisdom, secret handshakes etc.

    In fact the Book of Mormon contradicts most of LDS teachings and teaches the Trinity “ Within the Nature of the ONE GOD there are three distinct and Separate persons Father Son and holy Spirit. Alma 11:44 2 Nephi 31:21, Mormon 7:7 and also Joseph Smith earlier teachings like D&C 20:28. The Mormons say there three gods not One. Mormon Doctrine under plurality of gods.


    President Ezra Taft Benson stated: "Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the Book of Mormon came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation" ("The Keystone of Our Religion", The Ensign, January 1992, page 5).

    Joseph Smith claimed: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was more correct than any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.194).

    An official and widely read LDS publication reads: "Men can get nearer to the Lord, can have more of the spirit of conversion and conformity in their hearts...can gain a better understanding of the doctrines of salvation through the Book of Mormon than they can through the Bible...there will be more people saved in the kingdom of God - ten thousand times over - because of the Book of Mormon than there will be because of the Bible" (The Ensign, November 1984, p. 7).

    A letter from the First Presidency (Presidents Benson, Hinckley, and Monson) to all members of the Church states: "The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations". (Church News, June 20, 1992, page 3, letter dated May 22, 1992).

  • Jane July 3, 2012 at 2:12 PM

    Darell,

    I was told by a LDS person that only the fallen angels, Mormons that leave the LDS church, and those that commit murder in cold blood, are the ones doomed to "outer darkness." Is outer darkness another term for Hell according to your church? Is it that every person must kneel, and every tongue must confess that Jesus is Christ, while here on earth, or will they get a second chance to do so after death? I find that all Mormons believe differently on this matter because there are contradicting doctrines on this subject. I have even had one Mormon tell me that there is a "spiritual prison" like a purgatory of some type, for bad people to clean up, get rid of their sin and vices, and get right with God. Is this true???
    I believe that there is one heaven and one hell. There are no second chances as this life is the one and only test! Those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior while here on this earth will not get to spend eternity with God. Instead, they will spend eternity away from him, in Hell. We are in the end days. There is not much time left to find the one and only true God, Jesus Christ himself! !!! If you don't confess that Jesus is God you have the WRONG God and a fake Jesus!!

  • Lil July 3, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    Jane,
    I heard the same thing from an LDS missionary. People who were once mormon but turned away from the church and those who commited premeditated murder. In fact, every mormon that I've talked to has said the same thing. I have heard a few talk about a purgatory like state that you are stuck in until someone baptizes you on earth. I have heard mormons say that in this purgatory state that God will ask if you choose to accept the mormon church. If you say yes, then you get to go to heaven, if not you go to hell. Really? If everyone besides these two groups of people had a second chance...who would really deny God as we stand before him? No one wants to go to hell. This logic just doesn't make sense.

  • Ivanhoe July 3, 2012 at 6:06 PM

    Lil July 3, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    every mormon that I've talked to has said the same thing. I have heard a few talk about a purgatory like state that you are stuck in until someone baptizes you on earth. I have heard mormons say that in this purgatory state that God will ask if you choose to accept the mormon church.

    WOW, I thought you needed to accept Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR not the Mormon religion ?

    an organization is not going to save you. Rahab for example who was a Prostitute who belong only to a wicked country

  • Cali July 3, 2012 at 6:24 PM

    So according to the LDS religion,that would mean that almost everyone gets to heaven, because Jesus atoned for all sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? This is contrary to what the Holy Bible teaches."Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matthew 7:13
    Too much apathy is not always a good thing. Christians are made to look like the bad guys because they believe that people will indeed go to hell if they don't accept the true Jesus (God),as their savior, and ask him for forgiveness.
    Mormons evidently pretty much think everyone will get to heaven except in only a few cases (leaving the Mormon church&cold blood murder) Like stated above, what is the point of this life then??This is just an illusion, and a false sense of security put in place by the devil that has them fooled.

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 6:59 PM

    Many good and very valid questions are being presented. I work 12 hr. night shifts, check in on an elderly mother daily, do my "honey-do's" and sleep. I try to respond on break times at work. Patience is appreciated for slow response, and forgiveness requested for no response.
    But most of the answers come from within, not from others. I illustrated that 2-3 days ago, but will revisit that.

  • Lil July 3, 2012 at 7:00 PM

    The pastor at my church said that some people on his wife's side of the family are LDS. They told him not to worry because his work will be done for him after he dies so he will get to enter into heaven just the same. As many of you have probably heard from earlier in the year, the Jewish people who died in the holocaust were being baptized by the LDS church. (I'm not sure if this is still going on considering the Jewish people asked mormons not to do proxy baptisms) It's very disrespectful. Anway, if it was truely the belief of the LDS church that a person has to accept Jesus as their savior to get to heaven, why are the LDS baptizing a faith that does not view Jesus as the messiah? That is, unless one is a messianic jew. This shows accepting Jesus as their savior holds little importance when it comes to entering into heaven.

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 7:17 PM

    Creeksalmon,
    You said: "LDS worship Joseph Smith Jr " Praise the man" or warfaring man" or their organization, not Alpha and Omega" I challenge you to find and read the "Sacrament" hymns of Christ that were written by LDS poets, and also note the Sacrament hymns in our hymnal that are not of LDS authors, and are very dear to me.


    Your statement about worship is 100% ignorant. There is not an ounce of worship in my heart for any man or woman of full human heritage. Nor is it in any manner taught or produced in our doctrines, and all other LDS people I know do not worship anyone other than Diety. A key example of you taking a piece of our puzzle and twisting its representation because it doesn't fit into your puzzle.

  • Ivanhoe July 3, 2012 at 9:38 PM

    Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 7:17 PM

    Creeksalmon,
    You said: "LDS worship Joseph Smith Jr " Praise the man" or warfaring man" or their organization, not Alpha and Omega" I challenge you to find and read the "Sacrament" hymns of Christ that were written by LDS poets, and also note the Sacrament hymns in our hymnal that are not of LDS authors, and are very dear to me.

    that's the point, the none LDS authors are main stream Christians, and supposed are Apostate composers yet you sing their songs because they are annointed by the Holy Spirit.

    compare this Tabernacle Choir of amateurs compared to the Mormon Tabernacle choir

    http://youtu.be/ZUMnI7KO2lg You will see the annointing over a Pro choir choir with no annointing

  • Lil July 3, 2012 at 10:15 PM

    I find it humerous that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings Amazing Grace. It doesn't quiet seem to fit does it? What I'm trying to say is that I've never heard it sang with so little emotion or love for the Lord. I'm not denying that the Mormon Tabernacle version is beautiful, it does sound very beautiful. It's just not what I would call worshiping the Lord.

    Here is the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir singing Amazing Grace:
    http://youtu.be/lajq1U6X9kI

    Here is the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing Amazing Grace:
    http://youtu.be/xmIxcvIAsZk

    See the difference? Same song...so different.

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 10:22 PM

    Mitzi,
    You said: "Why can't you see that having the right God and the right Jesus has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the true spirit..." (And I appreciate the heartfelt efforts to show me what you see as what is right.)

    Let me try one more time to show you how 1+1=2 in this issue (or doesn't equate).

    You tell me that there is a Christian body of believers that make up Christianty. These believers have the right God, and the right Jesus, and are filled with the right Spirit.

    We know that the Spirit is what gives us understanding of God, of salvation, and of all the things that pertain to God. If they have the same Spirit, then they would have the same understandings. They do NOT have the same understandings, therefore, they do not have the same Spirit, which means they do not have the same Jesus.

    Furthermore, they have further disobeyed God by DIVIDING into various denominations, where the believers can pick and choose which definition of God they feel most comfortable in worshiping. This is what would be know as the wide gate and the broad path. I have heard hundreds of times that people leave one church for another, because they feel more comfortable in that style of worship. My Gosh! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is by design going to change and refine us as sinners. It is in scripture referred to the "Refiner's Fire." I don't think that is supposed to feel "comfortable." Need I spell out the discrepency here?

    The early Church, the original Church of Jesus Christ had the perfect program and solution. Of course the young and infant Saints, the converts to Christianity, are not going to understand the things of God at first. That understanding comes, as scripture states, line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. And that understanding only comes as the new Christians learned to be obedient to the laws of God. As they learned obedience to one "line" and to one "precept", their understanding would grow one line and one precept. David exclaimed that he knew more than the ancients because he kept the precepts of God. Jesus said that those who do the will of the Father will know doctrine. Job declared that to depart from evil is understanding.

    Continued......

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 10:23 PM

    ..... Continued

    So, what did the early Church do to help young converts who were not weaned from the milk? Read Ephesians 4. I will paraphrase. Jesus ordained and authorized certain individuals to lead and guide us as we grow in faith. When our "insights" are wrong, the apostles of Jesus Christ make the necessary corrections. When we follow those ordained servants, we become united in the faith (not divided), as Ephesians tell us will happen. Those who disagree, will apostatise. YOU CANNOT TAKE GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE AND CALL THEM ONE BODY IN CHRIST. (capitalization for emphasis, not for shouting.)

    You may reject the calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet, and the ordained apostles that have been on the earth since that Restoration, that is your freedom of choice, and your responsibility to investigate thourghly. But until you do find that Church that Jesus once established for the unity of the faith, you will be in darkness.

    I, for one, know where the light is shining. I cannot express, in this format, the price I had to pay in "uncomfortable" soul searching to find it. Not all Mormons have found it and you will get various uninformed information from many. I too am still gathering lines and precepts. I am far from the best example and hope that I have not said anything incorrect.

  • Ivanhoe July 3, 2012 at 10:30 PM

    the missionaries are sent to ask, "do you want to know more about the gospel of Jesus Christ?" But just as the iceberg is about 10% visible to the eye, so the Mormon missionary lessons represent only a small, visible part of Mormon doctrine.
    The missionary stratagem of withholding information is exposed by quoting page 9 of the "stake mission handbook" published by the Mormons:
    "The standard missionary discussions, when they are taught by the spirit, lead investigators carefully and systematically to a knowledge of these truths. Other portions of the gospel should generally be left to instruction and study after baptism. The Lord has instructed ,'And of tenets thou shall not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea , even the Holy Ghost' ( Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 )
    It is evident that Mormon authorities are commanding an inadequate representation of Mormonism by intentional concealment of their beliefs. this designed omission acts as a virtual fraud on the individual, manipulating then into the waters of baptism and membership into Mormonism. Mormon authorities feel justified in this deception because they believe they are "legal administrators" of the "only true church on the face of the earth" and, therefore, know what is best for all mankind.
    "end justifies the means" mentioned earlier psychology- an idea that all men must be led ' into the kingdom' gently, as they are ready. Mormons are taught to justify this practice with two scriptures: "line upon line, precept upon precept" (Isa. 28:10,18) and the concept of "milk to meat" ( 1 Peter 2:2; Heb 5:12) This interpretation is not scriptural. Jesus said there is nothing hidden (Matt. 10:26): but we gain understanding line upon line, as we are enabled by the Spirit to comprehend what has revealed.
    The Lord said, "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth... (Isa 45:19) Deep and hidden things need to be brought to the light of God's word. ( 1 Cor 4:5; Eph 5:8)

    page 8 Understanding Mormonism Sandra and Conrad Sundholm

  • Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 10:43 PM

    No, Ivanhoe, that is not the point and since you only copied partial of my post, you are manipulating my words to further your agenda. I see that as "yellow journalism" and that is a very serious accusation. If I am wrong, please point out what you were trying to communicate in response to my post. on that subject. and accept my request for forgiveness. I would much rather make friends than enemies. (The subject was if we worship Joseph Smith, not why we sing songs or hymns from non LDS authors. And for the record, we do not consider non LDS people apostates. They are innocent victims of an apostasy. They are no less qualified or less entitled to Divine inspiritation to write hymns of Christ if they love others more than self.)

  • Mitzi July 3, 2012 at 11:14 PM

    Darell,

    You are making things way too complicated.I can assure you that true Christians that follow the Holy Bible, and that alone, do know the correct Jesus. Yes, every Christian church denomination may have a different styles in how they worship and such, or how the pastors preach and present messages, but as long as the teachings are solely from the word of God, Holy Bible, and they believe that Jesus is God, then the saved Christians, even though they attend different buildings/denominations, are all still considered part of the SAME body of Christ and are led by the same holy spirit. The actual saved people are considered the church (not the buildings) It really has nothing to do about what denominational Christian building you attend, as long as the denomination teaches biblical Christianity with a foundation of Jesus, then those people will come to know the Correct God. I understand that different church denominations may have disagreements on things such as when the rapture will come, but things like that aren't something that will jeopardize the soul/spirit from having eternal salvation.The things that will cause a loss of salvation is having the wrong God,and a fake Jesus, and following a false gospel.
    There will be many different Christians in heaven that were a part of different denominations. Regardless of the building they worship in, they are still a part of the body of Christ, and are all led by the SAME God and the SAME holy spirit. We all only believe in ONE ALPHA and OMEGA GOD who is the father, son (Jesus), and holy spirit. I myself attend a non-denominational Christian church. I KNOW that I have the correct God and the real Jesus! God has revealed himself to many on a few occasions, and I have felt the Holy Spirit inside of me, but it was never a burning feeling in my bosom! I have never felt that. That would creep me out!
    Darell, You have had the truth sat out in front of you several times in all these posts. It is now your choice to deny the truth, and stay embodied in all the lies of Mormonism, and lose your salvation, or seek the truth. I hope to see you in heaven someday! :)

  • Darell Outhier July 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM

    Mitzi, you are way to intelligent to find this complicated.

    The standard:
    God gives us understanding.

    The problem:
    Two people divide from fellowship because they understand the things of God differently.

    Question:
    Are they both listening to and learning from the same God?

  • Gunter Wallins July 4, 2012 at 8:36 AM

    Sean has opend a much needed discourse - the contrast between Christians and Mormons leave a discerning reader believing (rightly so) taht the two are mutually exclusive. Period.
    Many thanks to the posters who made Seans points for him - Ivanhoe especially - without you Seans article would count for little in a debate.
    i could help but notice how important scripture is to scripture! The consistency of the Bible is one of our great weapons - LDS folks - please look into waht you reagrds as 'scripture" more carefully.
    Also, its interesting to see in thsi case of how a twisting of scripture can lead to apostasy - its similar to accepting evolution and a belief in millions of years - you start accepting those- twisting scripture to accept them - you end up with apostasy.

  • Louis July 4, 2012 at 10:59 AM

    Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were sexual predators. LDS people who believe the revisionist history fed to them by the LDS church instead of actual, factual history are to be pitied.

    The LDS church lies. and lies. and lies.

  • Cody July 4, 2012 at 11:17 AM

    "As a church, we have critics--many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge, is not based on ancient tradition.... Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation...." LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, April 2002, General Conference.

    How can Mormonism be Christian simplicater without Christ being Christ simplicater? A different center entails a different faith. Sean is right to point out the difference, even if not quite correct in the details.

  • Mitzi July 4, 2012 at 11:41 AM

    Darell,

    YES! All denominations of true Christianity that SOLELY teach from the HOLY BIBLE are absolutely listening to, and learning from, the same God!! We all believe in the same God of the Holy Bible and therefore there is only one spirit that leads ALL of us, which is the one and only God's holy spirit. Even though we may not all go to the same church building, if we are SAVED, we are still a part of the body of Christ. A specific building or denomination is not significant. Our bodies are our temples where Christ lives!
    If a person has the right God, and has accepted Jesus Christ of biblical Christianity into their heart, then they are being led by the holy spirit, of the one and only God. Maybe Mormons get so confused, and have a hard time with this concept, because they believe in many God's, and that Jesus is not God. Christianity is simple, while Mormonism distorts Christianity, and is so confusing. How can you put all your trust into ONE man that was clearly not a prophet of God. He practiced and encouraged something that was clearly WRONG in God's eyes,polygamy.
    This is actually coming directly from your own church's books, you can even go look it all up in the D&C if you like. The D&C section 132:38-39 are talking about David and Solomon and they are used as an example as to why they are allowed to have multiple wives and concubines and practice polygamy. It was said that polygamy and such were not sins. Then at the reference footnote below 39a Jacob 2:24, Jacob and David (the same event and people mentioned above) are told that polygamy is abominable and wrong. The women actually sent up prayers so this would stop. Then, in the Holy Bible, King Solomon practiced polygamy, he had 700 wives,and 300 concubines, it displeased God, so God took the kingdom away from Solomon, and this caused a split in Israel!
    The Holy Bible makes it clear that polygamy is wrong and a sin. Yes, people in the bible practiced polygamy, but they also had free will, and lust of the flesh! How could a TRUE prophet of God be practicing polygamy? There were never any true prophets of God practicing polygamy in the bible. Also, Joseph Smith made a statement that there would be people living on the moon, dressed like Quakers, and eight feet tall. We have been to the moon! Also, how was he able to carry 200 lb golden plates while people were chasing him? The answer, he didn't, there were never any plates. It was all made up just like the BOM.
    You may all be in the same church building/organization, following the same teachings of Joseph Smith, but that fact,does not make you the one true church. You have all just been blind sided by a false prophet, and now a bad spirit that has control over this man made organized religion. You have all been tricked into believing in a false gospel, the wrong God, and a fake Jesus.
    The Truth = ONE God, ONE Lord (Jesus is God) ONE Faith, ONE Gospel and ONE true church (which is the Body of Christ).

  • Mitzi July 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM

    If you can't find absolutely any evidence of places, people, or material goods spoken about in a book, would you still believe it to be true? What about if it is factually and historically wrong as well. It has the wrong culture, the wrong plants, the wrong animals, the wrong technology, and the wrong languages. Even archeologists and anthropologists say there is a major problem with this book. There is a reason why it is labeled fiction while the Bible is labeled non-fiction. The Bible has so much evidence to show it is authentic and valid. The Book Of Mormon on the other hand, has more things stacking against it, then for it. Faith is great but complete and total blind faith is just plain being dumb and naive. If that book is a scam then so is that entire religion...


    -Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your MIND.

  • louis July 4, 2012 at 1:15 PM

    "Heads up Mormon's, this jokes gonna sting. Next time a golden plate falls from the heavens, go ahead and put it in your spam file. Let's not base our entire life on a religion that's old enough for my dad to be like "Oh yeah...that's not true!" --Daniel Tosh
    (http://comedians.jokes.com/daniel-tosh/videos/daniel-tosh---to-the-mormons/)

  • J.k July 4, 2012 at 1:57 PM

    Haha that joke was funny. Tosh is very good at pointing out the obvioius.

    I realize that mormons dont' understand how there are all these different denominations of Christianity. To me, it's not confusing. I have been to a Baptist church, a non-denominational church, and several other different denominations of the Christian faith. All of them taught the same thing. Besides the catholic church or probably more specifically the roman catholic church, I have not come across a denomination that taught anything else except for the Bible, unaltered (that is except for the LDS and Jehova's Witness that claim to believe in Christ). I don't know very much about the Catholic faith so I don't want to be judgemental but some of the things they believe just aren't biblical. Like Mary's role in Jesus' life and how they say she was a virgin all her life. That is just a couple examples...Anyway, besides those, I have compared the beliefs of other denominations on their church websites and they are almost word for word the same. Personally, I prefer a non-denominational church. Atleast at the church I go to, I enjoy their worship services more than I did at a baptist church. Every church doesn things a little different, the important thing is that they teach soley from the Bible and teach that every part of it is true.

  • Mitzi July 4, 2012 at 2:14 PM

    J.K.

    Thank you for your post! Exactly what I have been trying to get across to Darell and other Mormons!

  • Chris Fore July 4, 2012 at 3:15 PM

    2 Nephi 25:23 "It is by grace that we are saved AFTER all that we can do."

    This is my biggest problem with Mormonism compared to
    christianity.

    Can a Mormom explain this verse to me? How does it not show that Mormonism is a religion
    of works?

  • Darell Outhier July 4, 2012 at 3:38 PM

    Mitzi, I have given you a great opportunity to tell me what is right with your faith, and you spend 95% of your efforts to tell me what is wrong with my faith. Since my salvation is at stake here (as you have pointed out many times) do I not have a right, and a duty, to be sure you understand the things of God by His Spirit?

    Please tell me more how it is possible that God gives different and often conflicting understandings to different people.

    I presented this:
    The standard: God gives us understanding.
    The problem: Two people divide from fellowship because they understand the things of God differently.
    Question: Are they both listening to and learning from the same God?

    And you answered "YES!"

    I am listening with open mind and heart.

  • Darell Outhier July 4, 2012 at 3:51 PM

    Chris Fore,
    I will start with the short version as to why Grace is given after all we can do.
    1)We are told to take upon us the yoke of Christ. What is a yoke?

    2)Christ is going to forgive us of our sin and wash the stains. Can He do that if we are still swimming in the muck that stains us, or must we repent by coming out of the muck?

  • Mitzi July 4, 2012 at 4:23 PM

    Darell,

    Are you really being open minded? I can't really explain it to you with a better explanation than that of which I already gave you above, or that of which J.K. gave you as well...So let me try this again :) I don't see Christians in different church buildings, or denominations, from one another as them having divided. Yes, some Christians may interpret things a little different than others, or they may just may have different styles of worship, or preaching. I do not see this as taking a toll on their salvation in any way as long as they are ALL using the same methods to teach from (the Holy Bible). They have to use the entirety of the Holy Bible and that ALONE. They can't use parts of the Bible that they like and void out what makes them feel uncomfortable. As long as they do so, they are ALL still learning from the same God! Christians get their understanding solely from God's word, The Holy Bible. God speaks to us through his word. It is as simple as that. God would never make another word where he contradicts himself. God is incapable of lying. He is perfect.
    Darell,I know where you are getting at with all this, you are trying to make Christians look as though they can't be right, because there are many of us, in different church buildings. Let me tell you something-Mormons might all be a part of the same organization/building, but I find that a lot of them don't even know exactly what they believe, and it is almost as if they are divided amongst their own church on their own beliefs. I have found that when you ask them questions, you get one answer from one Mormon, and a different answer from another Mormon. My friend tells me she know 100% that Mormonism is the one true church, but when I ask her anything about what she believes, she can't answer. She literally told me to "Ask the missionaries." Then she tries to make me look bad for questioning her. LOL..I think this happens because there are so many books, doctrines, and quotes that all your founders and leaders have made, which seem to all contradict one another! So Yes, it would be hard to know what to believe in that type of situation....At least all Christians believe in the same thing,God's word, and his word alone. We are united in this way, and we are one body of believers, and one church. We will all have salvation, regardless of what building we attend, to learn about, and worship the one and only God! Does this clarify things?

  • J.K July 4, 2012 at 4:26 PM

    How can this be considered Christianity? Salvation has nothing to do with accepting anyone as a prophet of God, even if they really are. Salvation lies in Jesus alone.

    An LDS missionary wont to tell you that in order to gain entrance into the highest form of Mormon heaven, the Celestial kingdom, you must accept Joseph Smith, Jr. as a prophet of god. Faith in Jesus alone, Mormonism teaches, will force you to spend eternity in a lower form of heaven.

    Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith stated in his book, doctrines of Salvation, that there is "No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. The word "salvation," used in this context, must really mean "exaltation" because former Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated in his book Mormon Doctrine that general salvation is given to everyone regardless of belief. Personal salvation or exaltation to the highest form of Mormon heaven comes only by accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of god and by following the laws of the LDS church

  • Darell Outhier July 4, 2012 at 4:33 PM

    Chris Fore,
    One more simple illustration of things that we can and must do.

    We will not be forgiven if we do not forgive others. Forgiveness is much of what the Grace of God gives us. We must forgive others to receive that Grace.

  • Mitzi July 4, 2012 at 4:42 PM

    Darell,

    Would you please explain to me in detail exactly who the God of Mormonism is (for this planet) and who the Jesus of Mormonism is....I think everyone needs to know. If you're not ashamed please feel free to explain to all these people! Then I would also like you to explain who it was that you believe created the first man that worked his way to becoming our God...Thanks!

  • Ivanhoe July 4, 2012 at 6:08 PM

    Matthew 19:7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

    Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

    Would that mean that Joseph Smith Jr and Parley Pratt were committing adultery, since they went even futher marring wives still married to their husbands, Parley Pratt was even killed by one of wives husband.

    Mormons seem to followed wicked prophets

  • Sammy July 4, 2012 at 7:13 PM

    I've been looking on Mormon.org just to get a feel of what they believe comming straight from them. I read that the 13 articles of faith are basically like a summary of their beleifs. Why is the belief that a man can acheive god hood not one of those(including what one has to do in order to acheive godhood)? I mean, that's a pretty huge thing! I've read through the site and I still feel like only a small part of what the church believes is actually showing. I have come across a few things that disagree with my biblical christian faith that were on mormon.org. First, that Jesus, God the father and God the spirit are three seperate beings. Not connected in the way the trinity describes it. I'm also shocked that they believe that Jesus paid for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane. I thought that was pretty clear in the bible that our sins were paid for by Jesus' blood on the cross. Also, one the mormon.org website, there is the question, "will I go to heaven?" They simply answered it with a "yes!" That doesn't make sense to me. It goes against what I have learned in the Bible, which is that most people will not get to go to heaven. That is just a very broad statement. That means to whoever reads this, the answer is yes. What if I didn't believe that Jesus is my savoir and lord? According to that I would still get to go to heaven. That's not Christianity. I don't even feel like typeing all the stuff I read that disagreed with what the bible says. Even then, there is a lot more I know about the LDS church that it does not say on the website. Any church I have been to has laid it all out on the table.

  • Faith July 4, 2012 at 7:26 PM

    So the LDS argument is that God is all powerful and has every right to give current revelation. Okay...well when that happens it should line up with what God has already told us. God knows everything. It's funny to think that he can't learn anything because he already knows it all. I'm ask you LDS, why do you think that God would so drastically change some of the basic core beliefs of the church that was set up by Jesus Christ himself? I'm not being condecending, I honestly want to know why. Everyone has their own right to their own faith, I'm just wanting to understand your guys' point of view. If you really beleive this to be THE true church, why does it go against some pretty laid out stuff in the bible. For example what God said in Isaiah 43:10:
    "You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
    That is pretty clear I think, so why do the LDS believe that there are many Gods who rule other worlds. Or what about when Jesus said that there is no marriage in heaven? Or what about going to heaven only through the knowledge and belief that Jesus, The Lord my God died, shedding His own blood for the sins of the world? No one comes to the father except through Jesus right? But why does LDS doctorine contridict that? I'm not trying to come off as rude. I'm honestly asking these questions. I just can't fathome how the bible can so clearly say one thing, but so many of the beliefs of the LDS faith are opposite of that and what, like 14 million people still follow those beliefs? I'm just beyond confused. The Bible, the true word of God is so much simpler.

  • Ivanhoe July 4, 2012 at 8:15 PM

    Sammy July 4, 2012 at 7:13 PM

    I've been looking on Mormon.org just to get a feel of what they believe comming straight from them. I read that the 13 articles of faith are basically like a summary of their beleifs.

    teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon, The Articles of Faith “ Mormons Creed” or Bible.
    1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

    2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

    3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

    4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

    5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

    6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

    7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

    8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
    9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
    10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
    11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
    12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
    13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
    14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
    15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
    16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
    17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

    18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
    19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

    20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

    21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

  • Ivanhoe July 4, 2012 at 9:03 PM


    Good video about the Mormon Faith

    http://archive.org/details/God_Makers

  • Sammy July 4, 2012 at 9:21 PM

    Thank you for the info Ivanhoe :)

  • Ivanhoe July 4, 2012 at 11:05 PM

    "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

    [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

    "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

    "he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312).

    "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255).

    "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

    "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.132);

    "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.269);

  • Darell Outhier July 4, 2012 at 11:13 PM

    Mitzi, you asked:
    "Would you please explain to me in detail exactly who the God of Mormonism is (for this planet) and who the Jesus of Mormonism is....I think everyone needs to know. If you're not ashamed please feel free to explain to all these people! "

    Being ashamed? Have I made that impression? Would I be here if so? First time you really puzzled me.

    The challenge is not explaining what you ask. The challenge is the same that Paul had when trying to teach the Hebrews about Christ in Chapt 5. But I see an opportunity to summerize all the BIBLICAL points I have been striving to bring to light. These Hebrews were seasoned Christians, as Paul recorded. He was teaching important things about Christ, and suddenly inturrupted his message of Christ saying:

    "11 Of whom we have many things to say (about Christ), and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

    These Hebrew Christians should have been prepared by now to teach about Christ, yet an authorized servant of Jesus just told them that they have regressed and that they were deaf. An IMPORTANT clue was just presented here. It is absolutely necessary to know and to live the first principles of the oracles of God before we can understand the things of Christ. Mitzi, what are "the first principles of the oracles of God?" And since they are the "first," why are they distinguished from the principles that will follow?

    If Christians in the early Church could become "dull of hearing," it is a given that the same could happen in any time or place. If Paul uses this phrase "the first principles of the oracles of God" in this context, it must be a term that they were familiar with, something that was taught to them before. Where in scripture do we find the early saints being taught "the first principles of the oracles of God " and what are these essential principles?

    Obviously, if you don't know them, then I would have my hands tied as Paul did when he tried to explain some "details" (as you requested) of Christ.

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 12:47 AM

    Darell,

    SMH...I am not trying to be rude but you somehow just completely dodged that bullet..You didn't answer my question at all! At least when you ask me something, I explain it in great detail without bunch of nonsense- AKA, SMOKE AND MIRRORS! That was the most anti straight forward answer ever.
    This God of Mormonism is certainly NOT the same God as biblical Christianity. My God had no beginning and no end. He was never a man that worked his way to Godhood. My God is Jesus Christ :)

    Apparently this is your God: It makes me ill.

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken. HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the Only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians and non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later . . . When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten of the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven . . . Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. (Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51 1854).

    Brigham Young stated “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me namely that Adam is our father and God .Our father Adam helped make this earth. He brought one of his wives with him. Then he (Adam) said, “I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state, I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh... that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle, or a dwelling place as mine has. (Brigham Young, Deseret News, 6/16/1873)

    “When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden . He is Michael, the archangel, the Ancient Of Days. .he is our Father and our God, and the Only God with whom we have to do” (Gen. Conf., Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51, 1854).

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 12:52 AM

    continued...

    “I tell you, when you see your Father in heaven, you will see Adam ” (Manuscript Addresses of B.Y., Oct. 8, 1854)

    Brigham Young: “I tell you more: Adam is the father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth, he did abide his creation and did honor to his calling and priesthood and obeyed his master or lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived and died upon an earth and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life. (Brigham Young, October 8, 1854, Brigham Young Addresses, 1850-1854, Vol. 2, by Elden J. Watson, sheet 221)

    “Adam was an immortal being when he came on this earth; He had lived on an earth similiar [sic] to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, And had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness, had begotten all the spirits that was to come to this earth. (Unpublished Revelations of the Prophets and Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, complied by Fred C. Collier, Vol 1, pp. 116-117, Collier's Publishing Co. P.O. Box 1866, Salt Lake City, UT 84110, 2nd edition).

    Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 10, 1852; Quoting Heber C. Kimball. “Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.”

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 12:55 AM

    If everyone is worshiping “their own God,” on different planets, then logically, each of these “Gods” must be false. None of them can be the true God because they all belong to the same polytheistic system of numerous gods, offspring of men. Therefore, any god the Mormon claims to worship through his church cannot the God of Scripture. Not on this earth (who is Adam), nor anywhere else; it is that unambiguous.

    Even one of your religious leaders stated that the Jesus of Mormonism is not the same Jesus as in biblical Christianity!!!! You are NOT Christians!
    *****President Hinkley commented, of those who question whether the Mormons worship the same Jesus “No I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ whom I speak has been revealed in this dispensation of the fullness of Times” (Deseret News, June 20 1998)

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 1:11 AM

    I dodged no bullets, if you are shooting them, stop it!

    I illustrated that if a person is going to know God and Jesus, and this is Biblical illustration, they will first know what the "first principles of the oracles of God" are, as presented in Hebrews 5. Why begin a discussion until we pass that test?

    Now, .... what are they?

  • Mr Matthew July 5, 2012 at 1:40 AM

    This was an interesting read. I think its clear Sean McDowell wrote a bad article and for that reason alone it is not worthy of "Biola"
    I am a Mormon, as I was adopted into a Mormon family and that was how it all started.
    I was baptized at 8 and all the priesthood and temple fixation that happen to us men who travel the Mormon path. Went on a mission, came home went to school got a job and blab blow blew, you’ve heard it.
    Like many I left this church because there was a desire to get another view, as it became clear my Mormon window had steam on it from all the heavy breathing.
    Over the years I wanted to find truth. I started traveling about the world and reading as I went. First I started with every ounce of anti Mormon literature which could be found. This was not satisfying so I went on to anti Christian and anti religion then philosophy and world religion to include other books of scripture from all the major religions. Before I was finished there was a trail of 700 books left in the path I had followed. It seems so easy for people to represent a line in the sand and tell another their pathway is incorrect and to depart it and pursue a new. This is very hard to do for most people as we vest so much of our ego into our sacred self. In actual fact it would be hypocrisy on you to blame another for this. I am not anti religious or anti Mormon or anti Christian. Now that I perceive things another way it is especially simple to survive as some of you might say, in a Mormon household. These are first-class people and not deceived in the manner you think. My opinion is this. It is very obvious that some early and current Mormon Church leaders simply have given their opinion and passed it off as sacred and from God. This passing something off as being from God is not new to us all, is it. If it is then your head may be in the sand. This little detail is not new to Mormons as many of us are aware that people do this, and we don’t care for it much. Some of us hide our heads in the sand never to look up at truth ever again. But it’s not just a Mormon thing is it. As so many of your own church leaders and writers over the decades and millenniums have done this. The Bible is the finest specimen, notorious to man as an example of opinion passed off as actually from that God who created us. Don’t worry I am not judging any religious group here. There is not room in me for that, it’s just that when you draw a line in the sand, it is often washed away by the wind and elements and past generations cannot see where that line first was created. This is spot on for all of us. So when you proclaim that all of God’s word is in the Bible and nowhere else, that’s fine but you may be unaware of authenticity on that point. It’s good to want to save a Mormon soul but there is another who did just that. His name is Jesus Christ.

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 2:03 AM

    Mr. Matthew,
    I appreciate, and perhaps envy your quality of being a "peacemaker," which is one of the greater gifts of the Spirit. But, the message of the Restoration really cannot be so neutral. It is either the greatest event since Jesus Christ, or the biggest fraud and deception in the history of the world. I am certain that it is, indeed, that " ... stone cut out of the mountain without hands" and there is nothing to stop it. It is a prophecy fulfillment that any and every person who believes in God should rejoice to see.

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 2:51 AM

    Mitzi's post:
    ((...I don't see Christians in different church buildings, or denominations, from one another as them having divided. Yes, some Christians may interpret things a little different than others, or they may just may have different styles of worship, or preaching. I do not see this as taking a toll on their salvation in any way as long as they are ALL using the same methods to teach from (the Holy Bible). They have to use the entirety of the Holy Bible and that ALONE. They can't use parts of the Bible that they like and void out what makes them feel uncomfortable. As long as they do so, they are ALL still learning from the same God! Christians get their understanding solely from God's word, The Holy Bible. God speaks to us through his word. It is as simple as that. God would never make another word where he contradicts himself. God is incapable of lying. He is perfect.))

    Perhaps you don't see them as being divided because all the dust and smoke has settled from the contentious and even violent periods (in our country at least), and they don't focus on their differences, so as to avoid contention. But history well documents so much of it.

    You have not rectified my observation that modern Christian understanding is not of man. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is going to unite and perfect the saints. Ephesians 4 makes that perfectly clear, and that it will not do so without prophets and apostles.
    Even if they use the entire Bible, that does not demonstrate that they understand the Bible by the Spirit of God, and not by the spirit of man. You have told me that it is OK to understand the Bible differently. Is not the Bible a thing of God? Are not the things of God only understood by the Spirit of God? This is a truth that you are dodging (I don't fire bullets). And I have never presented this truth in an agressive or combative manner. I only ask if this is not true, please explain why. I wish my presence here to be in a loving expression of faith and hope for all.

    You indicate that the differences of understanding among Christians is not any threat to salvation. Have you considered that not having the Spirit of Christ in your hearts IS a threat to salvation? What are the indicators of having Christ, or His Spirit, in your heart? Having His understanding is among many other indicators, and is equally essential as all others. So, if Christians do not have a Oneness of understanding, they cannot be shareing the One Spirit.

    Continued ....

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 2:52 AM

    Continued .....

    I already explained why and how LDS members that are not united in their understadings (and there are many) become united eventually, or they apostatise. We have the Church restored as Ephesians 4 illustrates, and with prophets and apostles to guide the members to perfection, and a unity of faith. When our understandings differ, they do so because of the sin that is in our lives (and there are many). But if we continue to follow the "oracles of God", for which purpose He placed them here, we will as result of refinement become one in understanding.

    It takes the Spirit of understanding to recognize that these are true apostles and prophets of God. Please be cautious that you are absolutely sure you have that Spirit of understanding, and ask God in faith if they are, or if not, where are they? Amos declared that God will do nothing without revealing His secret to His servants, the prophets. Is God active today among mankind? Is He doing anything today? According to Amos, not unless there is a prophet on earth. Is there such a person that the body of Christ in today's Christianity will recognize and unitedly support and follow? No, there is not that level of unity in today's Christianity, and there is not a prophet.

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 8:08 AM

    Darell,

    You have a way with making things appear to look good, but the big problem is, they only appear to look good from the outside. It is like a sugar candy coated apple that is rotten in the middle. You use the word God, however, we do not even believe is the same God, or the same Jesus.
    When you ask The correct Jesus to come into your heart, to be your savior, and admit that you're a sinner, and ask him for forgiveness, then he comes into your heart. It is as simple as that. If you have truly accepted him, he starts working inside you, to make changes for the good. Christians do good things out of respect, honor, and gratitude that we have for Jesus-Not to try to work anywhere in the heavens. When someone accepts Jesus, It can't be a phony Jesus, it has to be the Jesus of Biblical Christianity. I know I have the real Jesus in my heart. Christians are like bankers, they know the difference between the real Jesus and a fake Jesus.
    I believe in prophets of biblical time. However, I do not think that we need prophets today to tell us what religion to be in, and what to base our foundation and beliefs on. With The bible, we have the complete prophecy, and revelation from God. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2.
    No other gospel was needed. When Jesus died on the cross he said, "It is finished." God would not have sent someone to come change his original word. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Mark 13:31 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 cor 3:11 We are to center out whole entire foundation on Jesus, not a so called prophet.
    Also, please don't tell me you have the "spirit of understanding", when it is 100% clear that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. God would NEVER be the one to tell you, or any Mormon, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. You my friend, have the spirit of deception, and yes,LDS is the biggest fraud and deception in the world.
    BTW- Ephesians 4 talks about there being ONE God and father...Mormons must have missed that part. Also, God's holy spirit is very active today. Believe me, I have felt his presence many times in my church. Can you say the same?
    I wish you to could see who the true God is! Your religion is keeping you in shackles, and bondage, and I would like for you to be set free, and know truth.

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 8:24 AM

    To anyone who cares to respond.
    I have read many posts that declare my need for salvation, that I am heading for damnation. And this doctrine of "salvation" is a major difference between Mormonism and Modern Christianity. I have posted in previous comments that our different doctrines are much like a jigsaw puzzle, in that we see the big picture (or gain understanding) when the doctrines, or pieces of the puzzle are fitted together. My comments explain that most of the misunderstandings of Mormonism is caused when pieces of our puzzle are discredited, rejected, and too often ridiculed because people try to fit our pieces into your picture and puzzle scheme.

    I do not want to do the same thing about your beliefs, so will you tell me how your doctrine of salvation fits harmoniously with the pieces that represents the love, justice and non respecting of persons in the nature of God? Here is where I have difficulty understanding. Christianity teaches that we were created from nothing, or "exnihilo." Nothing about us ever existed until God brought us, or created us into existence. This must mean that everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. We are very different as individuals, and God made us that way. Some are made humble and obedient, and they utilize their free will to obey God and are saved. Others are prideful and disobedient, and they use their free will to do evil, and are thus damned. Yet God created them that way. How can a loving God send a soul to eternal damnation for being exactly what and how God created him to be?

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 8:52 AM

    Mitzi, why have you ignored the Biblical teaching I presented, that people cannot know who Jesus is, that is they are dull of hearing about Jesus, until they know and apply "the first principles of the oracles of God?"
    I am testing your testimony of Christ with scripture. What are the first principles of the oracles of God? Paul must have known that they were taught to the Hebrews before, because he said "...ye have need that one teach you AGAIN which be the first principles of the oracles of God."
    Did you see that word "again?" This isn't complicated. That means that it was taught to them before. Where in scripture is this recorded, when they learned it the first time? You do believe that the Bible is complete and has everything we need to know. This is not a minor, unessential teaching. Without it, our ears are stopped up and cannot hear or understand Jesus Christ. What are the first principles of the oracles of God?!?!

    Now, please, forgive any apparent sarcasm or aggressive contention in my words. It literally brought tears to my eyes to speak that way. I don't know you, but I love you and all my brothers and sisters here, and that comes from the deepest chambers of my heart, ... where the Spirit of God is found. I am not against you, I am for you. I want the best for us all, and I know that is only in and through Jesus Christ.

  • grindael July 5, 2012 at 9:00 AM

    Mormon leaders have always assured their "saints" that they spoke for God, even in General Conferences. The current mantra of "it has to be voted upon to be doctrine" is a recent fabrication of the church. If Mormons have a problem with the statements of their leaders, it is the members who are in error according to Marion G. Romney, because their leaders are inspired to say what Jesus would say if he were there:

    “What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)

    The Journal of Discourses was church doctrine:

    “Each successive year the power of God is manifestly increasing upon His people, and more especially upon his ministers in the Holy Priesthood, whose duty it is to build up and instruct the Church in His most holy will. The “Journal of Discourses” is a vehicle of doctrine, counsel, and instruction to all people, but especially to the Saints. It follows, then, that each successive volume is more and more valuable as the Church increases in numbers and importance in the earth, and its doctrines become more and more abundantly developed and are brought into practical exercise by His peculiar people. Every step of its advancement is fraught with the greatest possible importance to the human family. No Saint can afford to do without these precious precepts until they are able to exemplify them in their daily lives and conversation.” ~ “Apostle” Brigham Young Jr. Preface to Vol. 11, p. iii (1867)

    If it takes a church vote to make something a doctrine, then why was the Priesthood ban called doctrine in an official First Presidency Statement in 1949:

    The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time." ~First Presidency Statement, August 17, 1949.

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 9:10 AM

    We were created in God's perfect image (his perfect spirit) God does not have actual eyes, arms, legs, tongue ..He does not have a human body of flesh and bones. He is a holy spirit. The only part of God we can see is Jesus! Before sin came about, humans had a perfect spirit. For example,they could look in a mirror, and their human spirit was a reflection of the perfect spirit of God. After sin came into play, it was as if the glass was shattered, and we could no longer reflect God's perfect image!
    Jesus comes into us, to renew our spirits. If we have not accepted Jesus, we are spiritually dead, and not born again. Jesus comes into our spirits to make them alive again. There is a constant fight for our soul between the spirit and the flesh. If someone does not have Jesus in their heart, the spirit can't cleanse the soul, and it will be dirty, and the flesh will have complete and total control over the soul. When sin came into play so did a sinful nature as well. We are ALL born with a sinful nature, because we are offspring from Adam and Eve. God also gave us all FREE WILL. God did not want us to be robots. We choose where we end up for eternity as God does not send anyone to Hell. People go to Hell because of choices they make here in this life. God left is with full manual of life instructions to abide by (The Holy Bible) He didn't just leave us to live how ever the way we want to. If we choose Jesus, and accept him into our heart, and stay away from sin, then we won't want to do evil things, because we will be walking more in our spirit than in our flesh.
    I realize, there are good people that don't know Jesus. However, what is good enough in God's standards? We all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory, we all are in need of a savior to be forgiven of our sins. We have to accept Jesus, and get forgiveness of sins while here on this earth, in order to be part of the kingdom of heaven.No one gets to the father but through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life... John 14:6

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM

    Your oracles you speak of are not of the Holy Bible. They are coming from the book the, "Teachings of Joseph Smith" pg. 272 and The D&C 90...I assure you that the bible, in which speaking of the Oracles, did not suggest that Joseph Smith had a divine supernatural revelation from God. Joseph Smith was not a true prophet of God and he NEVER had authority from God nor did he ever get any revelations from God. Yes, Joseph Smith is in the bible, but not as receiving revelations from God, he is in the part where it speaks of false prophets, and false gospels.

    This is all LDS teachings:

    The plea of many in this day is, that we have no right to receive revelations; but if we do not get revelations, we do not have the oracles [prophets] of God; and if they have not the oracles of God, they are not the people of God. . . . Jesus in His teachings says, 'Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' What rock? Revelation.

    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 272, 274.


    WOW!!!!FIRST OF ALL, THE ROCK that any church should be built upon, is JESUS. May as well call your church the Church of Revelation....lol

    This is the man, that makes such a statement, that God gave divine revelation to???!!! What a joke....He mocks God, Jesus. I am pretty sure God did NOT give him any revelations...

    "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) -JOSEPH SMITH.

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 7:20 PM

    Mitzi, when you cannot answer a question I present you about your Christianity and the Bible, instead of simply saying "I don't know," you divert the subject to what you think is more wrong with my faith. I want to know what is right with your faith, not what is wrong with mine. You would be much more convincing if you could show me what is better, rather than to try to show me what is worse.

    How can you state: "Your oracles you speak of are not of the Holy Bible ....," when I copied and pasted it straight from the Bible? Tell me, please, what Paul thinks the oracles are? (My understanding is that the oracles of God are the sacred things of God). But more important, tell me if I am wrong to assess that Paul's message teaches us that true Christians cannot comprehend who and what Jesus Christ is until they know and apply "the first principles of the oracles of God." (Hebrews 5:12 in case you need to verify it is in the Bible.) And also, Paul told these early and seasoned Christians who "ought to be teachers" that they need to be taught AGAIN what these principles are. Since it was taught before, why is it not in the Bible? And since these principles (when obeyed) precede understanding of Jesus, how can you know who Jesus is if you don't know what these principles are?
    There is no Love without Truth, please tell me some Truth about your faith, starting with the questions I presented.

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 8:00 PM

    Remember what Paul wrote to Timothy: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16). Inspiration and expiration describe breathing. An alternate rendering might be, "All scripture is God-breathed." Some translations render that verse in this manner. The word used for the Spirit of God is translated from the word pneuma, so the Holy Spirit (hagios pneuma) might even be understood as "Holy Air." ( John 3:1-12.) The oracles are "the declaration of God, ... the historical manifestations of this Word of God." They are the God-breathed scriptures of the Bible! They are the Word's Word!
    Jesus Christ is the oracle of God. God spoke through him. He is the living word. His word is the Holy Bible. When the Lord Jesus Christ walked on this earth, He was the Son of God, God in human flesh and He was the living oracles of God – He was the mouthpiece of God. He was the word made flesh and dwelt among us. “…and his name is called the Word of God” – (Rev.19:13).

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 8:19 PM


    ye have need that one teach you again...the first principles of the oracles of God; (5:12b)
    Could this be why they ran the danger of being carried off by strange and different teachings? "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines" (Heb. 13:9).

  • Darell Outhier July 5, 2012 at 8:21 PM

    I can appreciate that. The things that God breathes to us are just as necessary to life as is the air that we breath. That is indeed very sacred and inspiring.

    And what are the first principles of the Word's Word?
    Do you agree that they must be understood and applied before we can begin to comprehend Jesus the Christ?

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 8:37 PM

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is very simple. Even a child could understand it. In fact we are told to read the bible like a child. I suggest you read the book of John with a soft heart, open eyes/ ears, and pray that if there is any deceit for it to be taken away. :)

    There is no other gospel:
    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we have proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed. As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed. Galations1:6-9

  • Mitzi July 5, 2012 at 9:38 PM

    or when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be
    the first principles of the oracles of God.
    Hebrews 5:12

    The first principal is that Jesus wanted us to spread his gospel, the good news, found in the Holy Bible..One of the greatest needs of Christianity is to be Discipled to be taught how to live the Christian life! Jesus said to His "disciples," to go out and "teach all nations!" (Matthew 28:19). The whole purpose of preaching the Bible is first to instruct people of their sinful condition, and their need for the Saviour, and then to train them as Jesus did His disciples.

  • Ivanhoe July 5, 2012 at 10:00 PM

    I ran across someone who gives a good reason for it. Ed Bliss talks about why he left mormonism in this article. He says it had to do with what was not in the Book of Mormon. And that was mormon doctrine.

    "It finally dawned on me what was missing: Mormon doctrine! I had wanted to expand my understanding of the gospel by delving into such subjects as pre-existence, the spirit world, the three degrees of glory, eternal progression, baptism for the dead, the multiplicity of gods, the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods, eternal marriage, the rationale for polygamy, the nature of the Godhead, the denial of priesthood to blacks, and so forth. So I combed through the Book of Mormon looking for information about these teachings. After all, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie had assured us that "almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much better clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible." So I started looking.

    "I was astounded when I discovered that none of those doctrines are to be found in the Book of Mormon, and that Apostle McConkie's assertion was absolutely false. I was puzzled. I thought, surely an apostle would not knowingly lie, and McConkie couldn't have failed to read the book. So how could he have been unaware of what was in (or rather what was not in) the book that was "the cornerstone of Mormonism"?

    "I was disillusioned and disheartened. Why were these things missing?

    "I was nearing the end of my mission when I realized all of these doctrines had been added to Mormonism after the Book of Mormon was in print, when there was no way to go back and put them in. They were all "postscripts" to Mormon theology **– which explains, incidentally, why Joseph Smith never quoted from the Book of Mormon when discussing doctrine: there was nothing there to quote."

    http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/ed-bliss.html

    In other words, Joseph Smith made it all up.

  • Darell Outhier July 6, 2012 at 12:01 AM

    Mitzi, it would help my confidence in your efforts to set me on the right path if you would tell me where scripture states that Mat. 28:19 pertains to the FIRST principles. Paul indicated that these first principles were taught to the Saints at large. Your choice of what you believe is that first principle was taught only to the eleven disciples by the resurrected Christ. These disciples already had an understanding of Christ, so it must be that they had known and had applied the first principles, to be a chosen disciple. (Some of the 11 doubted, perhaps it possible that they may have not quite mastered those principles.)

    If the Bible is complete and nothing lacking, and this being such an issue of priority that the ability to understand Jesus Christ is at stake, and we know that it was taught as a basic truth to all Christians (assuming that the Hebrews did not receive special favors), then where is it recorded in scripture?

  • Ivanhoe July 6, 2012 at 12:10 AM

    The Apostle Paul wrote: "Unto Him (God) be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end Amen" (Eph. 3:21). Could that be true if there was a universal apostasy of the church for several centuries? Jesus also said, "Upon this Rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Notice that it is Christ Himself (not mortal men) who builds His church or adds to it (Acts 2:47), and Christ has all power in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18; Rev. 19:6). LDS often claim that the true church must be built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, as Eph 2:20 says. This is commented upon later in this chapter under the sub-title, "Apostles." But Paul wrote, "...other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 3:11). Since Jesus Christ is the Foundation of the church, He is also part of the church! Could that church "collapse" or become extinct when the omnipotent Christ is the Foundation of it? Is it possible for Christ to lose "the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25)? Christ is called the "Good Shepherd" in John 10:11. But, any shepherd who loses all his sheep is not a very good shepherd!

    Jesus must bear some responsibility for the existence of the church since God "gave Him to be head over all things to the church" (Eph. 1:22). The Lord Himself also nourishes (feeds) and cherishes (lovingly cares for) the church (Eph. 5:29). Jesus never told anyone else to go build His church. Instead, He declared, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18). And after He ascended into heaven, Acts 2:47 declares, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." He needed no successor to build His church because He lives forever (Heb. 7:24-25). That is why Col. 1:18 declares, "He is the head of the body, the church." Notice the present tense verb is used which shows that Jesus was still Head of His church even though He had ascended to heaven many years before that was written! And Jesus is still the Head of His Church and He is adding members to it today! Thus, when LDS claim that Christ's church was prevailed against and ceased to exist, they insult the living Head of the Church!

  • Ivanhoe July 6, 2012 at 12:11 AM

    Even Mormon scripture denies a total or universal apostasy. The B. of M. III Nephi 28 and the D. & C., Section 7, tell the story of the Apostle John and three "Nephite" apostles who were to remain alive on the earth until the second coming of the Lord! If four apostles have been on earth since the time of Christ, a universal apostasy could not have taken place during that time according to President Joseph Fielding Smith, the 10th Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS Church. He said, "As long as one elder remains on earth today he would have the priesthood and could organize the church even though all of the apostles and first presidency, etc., were killed off" (Latter Day Prophets Speak by David H. Ludlow, p. 213). Can that be true of the LDS Church today and not have been true for the original church after which the LDS Church claims to be patterned? Thus, even if a universal apostasy took place, the four Apostles who never died could have restored the church without Smith's help! But, LDS claim Christ's church ceased to exist after about 100 years while Smith's is still growing after more than 150 years!

    Mormon Claims Answered Marvin Cowan

  • Darell Outhier July 6, 2012 at 1:51 AM

    Ivanhoe, good questions and points. Keep studying and praying to know. You will find that there was and is a plan and purpose for the way things play out. You cannot assume that you know the entire game plan and can cry foul when things don't go according to your limited view of the big picture, you and I are too stupid for that. The gates of hell never did prevail. There is a war, and the devil got in some good licks, but even a game of chess, there are strategies and apparent minor losses to gain the final win. The apostasy was well prophesied,and all though naysayers reject that interpretation, the evidence of the apostasy surrounds us.
    The 2nd witness of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, along with the Restoration was part of that plan all along. The devil never had a chance and his efforts have contributed to the purpose of separating the wheat from the tares. The Lord works very efficiently.

  • Ivanhoe July 6, 2012 at 7:19 AM

    Joseph Smith also declared, "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (T. of P.J.S., p. 327). And LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson said, "Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated" (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).

    LDS Apostle Orson Pratt also wrote:

    If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote.... Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN HIS RIGHT MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47; read all of this pamphlet for a detailed attack upon the Bible).

    Interesting how Mormons say all the changes in Bible when Book of Mormon and Doctrine of Covenants went through drastic changes and can be verified .

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p157.gif

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p140.gif

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p141.gif

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p143.gif

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p145.gif

    http://www.utlm.org/images/changingtherevelations/changingtherevelations_p154.gif

  • Dee July 6, 2012 at 3:38 PM

    A vital link in the argument stated in the book of Hebrews is: Jesus is our access to God. He is our great High Priest. But He is not part of the Levitical order of priests. He is our Priest, not as in Levi, but as in Melchizedek. The author needed to develop this point, but his readers were "dull of hearing." The passage is Heb. 5:11-14.


    "...of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."


    "Dull Of Hearing"

    The Hebrew writer needed to teach them about Jesus as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," but there was a problem: his readers were "dull of hearing." This word "dull" is the Greek word NOTHROS, and it means slow-moving in mind. This is not about being old and forgetful. This doesn't mean they were mentally deficient or incompetent; and this is an not involuntary learning disability. They had the mental ability, but they were lacking growth an diligence in using the ability and opportunity given to them. So the writer had "much to say" about Jesus as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," but ran into this barrier: they were dull of hearing.


    "By This Time"

    Someone might be tempted to ask, "How long should it take, after baptism, until you have enough knowledge to teach others about the gospel?" Of course, this passage doesn't give a specified time (a year, two years or three). The specific span of time will vary from individual to individual, depending upon their capacity. Yet there comes a time when it is obvious, people have had sufficient time and opportunity to grow, learn and have the maturity necessary to teach others. Some need to be admonished: "You

    have had time, but you haven't used it. You have had opportunities, but you didn't respond. You should, by now, be able to teach others - at least the basics; but you have been sluggish; you are 'dull of hearing'." It does take time to grow and acquire knowledge, but it should not take forever. In the case of the Hebrew Christians, they had the time and opportunity to grow and qualify themselves to teach others. Yet, they hadn't responded with diligence, so the writer said: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers . . . you need someone to teach you


  • Dee July 6, 2012 at 3:39 PM

    "The First Principles Of The Oracles of God"

    Though they had the time, they needed to be taught "the first principles of the oracles of God." We've all heard about children, going through twelve years of public school, yet they cannot write a paragraph, fill out an application correctly, or add and subtract. This is usually not about mental ability or disability. This is about being diligent and serious to use the time, opportunity and privileges of education. Many enjoy good teachers, useful textbooks and every encouragement to learn - but they don't learn. So, after twelve years of school they need someone to teach them again the "three R's." Likewise, consider a person, baptized twenty years ago or more; a member of a good local church with good teaching and preaching; all kinds of time and opportunity to learn. But this person cannot tell their neighbor what the Bible says about baptism. Do you see the problem? "...of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God..."


    "You Have Come To Need Milk And Not Solid Food"

    Generally speaking, milk is good for babies. But if a fifteen year old boy is still eating the same diet he started with as an infant, that's a problem. Gaining a useful knowledge of God's revealed will is a graduated process, similar to the steps we go through in physical growth. And the problem is, some people just remain spiritual babies, in spite of all the time and opportunity they have to mature. They are afforded every good opportunity and encouragement to gain experience, to learn to discern between good and evil and be able to teach the gospel to others. But they don't respond to the opportunities, use the time or accept the challenge! (See the same milk/meat contrast, 1 Cor. 3).


    Though they have been blessed with the resources, they have not applied themselves. They "have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."


    Practical Conclusion

    We can grow, but it will not happen if we are sluggish and dull in responding to the opportunities we have. We can learn more and more; we can become "skilled" in the application of God's Word; we can tell the good news to others and strengthen ourselves for adversity. But it will not happen if we fail to use the time we have.


  • Dee July 6, 2012 at 3:40 PM

    @ Darell Outhier.

    My question to you is, what's your point?

  • Mike Barlow July 6, 2012 at 4:05 PM


    @ Darell Outhier, These people don't want to be taught the gospel of Christ from you. What they want is your Mormon head on a platter, with lettuce and veggies.
    I get your point man but these people are NOT looking for truth. If they were then they would understand much more about their own bible then they display in these post. It is clear that most of these folks here only want you to explain the points of your doctrines and history because their doctrines and Christian history are SO LARGE that it is indefensible, whereas your history is all over the net dude. They only want a fight and you’re the best one around for now.
    The fact remains that the Christian confidence in this day and age is so scattered, bamboozled and magical that one could only just believe on his name and not know there history. It’s sad really to see Mitzi and Ivanhoe and the others say things to you and not know that what they are doing. The Christian mission is not to go to war folks. It’s to teach correct principles about why Christ died for you.
    This is crazy to have so many people fight over “well my Christ is better and more true then your Christ” Really just what do you folks think you’re really about hitting up some Mormon like you are. What a waste, of people who don’t know what they are supposed to be doing. It’s clear that all of you who are on the fight against the Mormon are clearly lost and fighting for the devil. Get back on your mission and teach Christ and his words. You silly freaks and vipers should know better than to trade his word around like you know what it means when, you can’t even live the words in your heart. What a shame!!! Ok go ahead and hate me, because that is what you do so well.

  • Mitzi July 6, 2012 at 6:50 PM

    @ MIke-Truth is hate to those that hate truth.

  • Ivanhoe July 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

    Book of Mormon Science


    Helaman 12:15 says 'for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.'

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 2:43 AM

    Thanks Mike,
    I figure that if we don't all learn to love and respect one another, we are all loosers. I am doing my best.

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 4:51 AM

    Dee,

    We are not talking about a few slow learners, this epistle was written to the whole of the Hebrews. And what Paul was referring to (some say that Paul did not write this, no matter) has nothing to do with any physical characteristics of hearing or mental capacity to learn. It pertains to spiritual growth. Jesus taught in parables where physical truths parallel spiritual truth. He knew that they could comprehend the physical truths, but most often they would not relate to the spiritual message, the things that give us spiritual growth, and He declared that they have eyes that see, but see not, and have ears that hear, but hear not.
    The cure for this spiritual deafness must be contained in the first principles of the oracles of God, because that is the medicine that Paul perscribed. These principles were taught to them at least once before because Paul said "AGAIN" you must be taught these principles. My point, that you somehow missed (perhaps you did not review all of my posts to Mitzi), is: 1.) If these essential principles were taught to new Christians, why is that not recorded in the Bible? 2.) If these principles are the "FIRST" principles, where are we instructed as to what the second, third, forth, ....etc. principles are, and how or why do they differentiate? 3.) Exactly what are those principles that must come first? My deep feelings tell me that the Hebrews did not exercise themselves in obedience to these principles, probably because someone convinced them that works are not necessary, you only need to beleive. As a result, they forgot what they were taught. (When I hear, I forget. When I see, I remember. When I do, I understand.) David testifies that he understood more than the ancients because he KEPT the precepts of God. Job declared that we gain understanding by departing from evil. Jesus revealed that those who do the will of the Father will understand doctrine. So please don't think that the emphasis of "works" is just a "Mormon thing."
    I want scripture to instruct me what these first principles are. There is way too much at stake to listen to the interpretations and "logical" deductions of another fellow sinner who has had theological training and wears fancy robes to assure people he knows, for how am I to know that he or she is not "dull of hearing" and teaching by the spirit of man, and not by the Spirit of God? I would prefer a fisherman, or a welder, or a Carpenter that has been called of God, as the New Testament illustrates and testifies is how Jesus Christ set up His Church for the very purpose of protecting followers from deception if they but trust and follow his ordained oracles.
    You will say this is not to be found in the Mormon Church, fine. But please tell me exactly where it is to be found.

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 5:44 AM

    Dee,
    BTW, .... did the Hebrews ever recover?

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM

    Dee,
    Another "point" came to me. If these "first principles" were an emphasis in the early Church, are they emphasized as "first principle essentials" in Christian Churches today? That would include all of them that are considered to be within the body of believers. Do you think you can get the thousands of Christian Churches today to agree on what these first principles are, let alone convincing them that they are essential?

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 8:59 AM

    The Greatest Commandment
    (Matthew 22:34-40; Luke 10:25-28)
    Mark12:28 Then one of the scribes came near and heard them arguing with one another. He saw how well Jesus£ answered them, so he asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of them all?”
    29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord,
    30 and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
    31 The second is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
    No other commandment is greater than these.”

    Sounds like the Jews and Jesus thought the greats command or principle was the Shema, something the Mormons deny and flee from . They have changed this and said "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is three Lords" in there theology.

    Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.

    "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

    sounds like Mormons haven't reached milk stage but are on baby Formula if that , maybe morphine drip.

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 9:51 AM

    Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:
    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:8)

    Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (New Testament | John 17:11)

    There seems to be a possibility about how multiple persons can be one. So if that is what the Mormons view, place that doctrine in their big picture like the piece of a jigsaw puzzle, and when the next doctrine that also doesn't fit into your puzzle comes along, keep it in perspective and in place in the Mormon puzzle. Keep doing that until you begin to see what their big picture looks likes. If you keep comparing the individual pieces (doctrines) to your puzzle, and tossing them out because they don't fit there, you have never really made a true evaluation.

    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (New Testament | Matthew 27:46)

    How can you forsake yourself? And if you did forsake yourself, why would you even ask? You would already know the answer.


  • Hope July 7, 2012 at 1:40 PM

    Darell,

    Question: "Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

    You may wonder: well then how is Jesus God? Well, Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. So, we see in the Bible interactions between the humanity of Jesus with God, with the divinity of Jesus who is God Almighty.

    There is just one God: He is only one Spirit, one person.

    Jesus can speak to the Father because they can function in separate identites, even though they are both **the same God**. There is NO parallel in the material world that can represent the nature of this *supernatural* being.

    “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.

    However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5). He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He was made a sin-offering, and He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God. It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained, that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death.

    In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

    Read The New King James Version Book of John.

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 2:49 PM

    Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 9:51 AM
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (New Testament | Matthew 27:46)

    How can you forsake yourself? And if you did forsake yourself, why would you even ask? You would already know the answer.
    Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 9:51 AM
    There seems to be a possibility about how multiple persons can be one. So if that is what the Mormons view, place that doctrine in their big picture like the piece of a jigsaw puzzle, and when the next doctrine that also doesn't fit into your puzzle comes along, keep it in perspective and in place in the Mormon puzzle. Keep doing that until you begin to see what their big picture looks likes. If you keep comparing the individual pieces (doctrines) to your puzzle, and tossing them out because they don't fit there, you have never really made a true evaluation.

    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (New Testament | Matthew 27:46)

    How can you forsake yourself? And if you did forsake yourself, why would you even ask? You would already know the answer.

    Sounds like Darrell is parroting a Lie Mormon lie, that the Trinity is one person. Notice how all creeds and Bible Dictionary define the Trinity as three separate and distinct persons;;

    Trinity

    The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and (c) these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it.
    (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


    TRINITY

    The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).
    (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)



  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 2:52 PM

    we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in technical terms, supplied by philosophical reflection; but the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine.
    (from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

    God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- being [ all Synonyms ]

    E. Calvin Beisner
    God in Three Persons
    The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
    The doctrine of the Trinity-

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM

    The Present Status of the Lamanites
    "The dark skin was placed upon thee Lamanites so that they could be distinguished from the nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse....Perhaps there are some Lamanites today who are losing the dark pigment. Many of the members of the Church among the Catawba Indians of the South could readily pass as of the white race; also in other parts of the South."
    Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 122-123 Joseph Fielding Smith


    "The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation...There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness."
    - Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 2:58 PM

    Here's what Darel's leaders say about the Trinity opposite of what is taught

    In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards
    Page 18 under the heading John's Testimony of the Personality of God
    Says "This accords also with the report of John's baptism of Jesus:
    16When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and £He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
    Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?

    President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.' ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical

    Bill McKeever;Eric Johnson. Mormonism 101: Examining the Religion of the Latter-day Saints (Kindle Locations 503-507). Kindle Edition.

    James Talmage states: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)

    1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
    Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 6:06 PM

    One of the Biggest lies Mormons foist on Christians is there so called "straw man" of the difinition of the Trinity , @ Darell Outhier. You can see he listens to his blind guides, so he become blind follower

    E. Calvin Beisner
    God in Three Persons
    The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
    The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
    When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
    We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

    “The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

    Perhaps the most famous Trinitarian reference from the second century is the statement of Theophilus [ 116-181], another writer who is only shortly removed from the last of the apostles. His is the first use of the word “trinity” in Christian literature which is extant:
    In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdoms.” Vol 2 pp 100 101 Epistles to Autolycus,II WV
    Page 53

    The concept of Trinity in unity, three distinct persons who are the one God, is then firmly entrenched in Christian thought by the middle to second century
    Page 54

    Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three Co-herent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person, as it is said, “ I and my Father are One “ in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number. Roberts and Donaldson, anti-Nicene Fathers Vol. 3, p. 621, against Praxeas, xxv
    Page 57

    The New Testament teaches us that there is one God and that this God is three distinct persons, the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these persons are co-equal and co-eternal. This is also the only possible interpretation of the Nicene Creed as it was intended by its authors. Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity as taught in the Nicene Creed is an accurate representation of the teachings of the New Testament” pp 155-156
    E. Calvin Beisner

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 6:08 PM

    E. Calvin Beisner

    God in Three Persons


    It is this relation of Christ to the Father and the Spirit which Dr John Robinson takes as one of the strong-est indications of triunity in the Godhead:
    At the Incarnation… the Godhead is revealed for the first time as existing in three distinct relationships. It is these differences of relation that make necessary a doctrine of the Trinity, not differences of “character” or modes working. The Old Testament, too knew God in different “characters” but it was not forced to a Trinity Theology…We cannot begin with God creating, God redeeming, God sanctifying, or any such collection of attributes, and proceed to identify these with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Rather, one must start with the three Persons, no more and no less, which are required by the three relations at the Incarnation
    When we have said these three things, then---that there is but one God, that the Father and the son and the spirit is each God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person---We have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
    Page 40

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 6:16 PM

    Jesus, as a devout Jew, most likely recited this sacred Jewish prayer:

    "Hear, O Israel: the Lord (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (Jehovah)? (Deut. 6:4)

    So, are we to believe the Bible, and the Lord Jesus Christ, or are we to put our faith in the flawed Mormon polythesitic system which contends that Elohim (an exalted alien from another planet) is the Father and is a separate god from Jehovah, his son, who is another god?

    In other words, is Elohim Jehovah, or is the Shema of Scripture wrong?

    I would say that the SHEMA trumps the false prophets of Mormonism, and still stands, folks:


    That Elohim is Jehovah is validated in many Scriptures, for instance:

    BLESS the Lord, O my soul. O Lord(Jehovah) my God (Elohim), thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Ps 104:1

    Very tired of having to deal with those who resort to extra-biblical linguistic gymnastics to prove that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Who shall we believe? Those that follow Joseph Smith, an immoral man who cheated on his wife and claimed God told him to do so? Or, the Word of God, which Jesus, Himself, testified was true.

    Has any Mormon been resurrected from the dead to prove Mormonism's teachings? No. I'll stand with Christ, My Lord and My God

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 7:04 PM

    Your references make my eyes cross and my head spin, and say "what did I just read?" I guess I am destined to hell because I cannot keep up with the scholars you sited.

    But if you can speak in plain and simple terms for the simple minded, how are those disciples going to become one, just as the Father and the Son are one?

    Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (New Testament | John 17:11)

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 7:20 PM

    Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 7:04 PM

    Your references make my eyes cross and my head spin, and say "what did I just read?" I guess I am destined to hell because I cannot keep up with the scholars you sited.

    But if you can speak in plain and simple terms for the simple minded, how are those disciples going to become one, just as the Father and the Son are one?

    Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (New Testament | John 17:11)


    One in the Faith, believing in the Gospel taught by Jesus and spread by his followers 2000 years ago.

    E. Calvin Beisner
    God in Three Persons
    The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
    The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
    The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.

    The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )

    The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )

    The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )

    Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20

    When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

  • Darell Outhier July 7, 2012 at 10:39 PM

    Was that supposed to answer my question and explain how the disciples are going to become one, exactly how the Father and Son are One?

    Your references are conclusions that are not spoken of in scripture, but rather are only the deductions that post-New Testament individuals have derived according to their understanding of scripture. Christianity today is Catholic or Protestant. They are Protestant because they protested Catholicism. At what time did the Catholic leadership and clergy begin to corrupt the doctrine and practices, according to the reformers. Did it happen all of a sudden during Martin Luther's era? Or did it start even before the Creeds? If you are to quote the teachings of those writers of the Creeds as the genuine source of Christianity, then everything outside of Catholicism is nothing short of apostates.

    A clear and concise description of the doctrine of the Trinity per LDS viewpoint is found here.
    http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng

  • Ivanhoe July 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM

    Your link didn't work but it must agree with Book of Mormon....Yes

    Alma 11:
    26And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
    27And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
    28Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
    29And he answered, No.

    2 Nephi 31:
    21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

    Alma 11:
    44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    Mormon 7:
    7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

    The Testimony of Three Witnesses
    And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris

    Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
    28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 1:14 AM

    This is the article that link shows if you copy and paste it in your browser URL

    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.
    As Elder Ballard noted earlier in this session, various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

    By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

    Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 1:17 AM

    Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

    So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

    In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

    We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

    It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

    .


  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 1:19 AM

    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four

    With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

    To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

    A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 1:21 AM

    Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

    My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

    I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

    Foot notes follow

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 1:22 AM

    Footnotes to above article


    1. Isaiah 29:14.
    2. Articles of Faith 1:1.
    3. Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.
    4. Constantinople, A.D. 381; Ephesus, A.D. 431; Chalcedon, A.D. 451.
    5. Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.
    6. John 17:3; emphasis added.
    7. For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.
    8. See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.
    9. John 5:19; see also John 14:10.
    10. John 6:38.
    11. John 15:24.
    12. Matthew 19:17.
    13. John 14:28.
    14. Matthew 26:39.
    15. Matthew 27:46.
    16. Philippians 2:5–6.
    17. See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.
    18. See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.
    19. See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.
    20. John 17:3.

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 2:52 AM

    Hope,
    So sorry, I missed your post with so much activity by another. Thank you for the peaceful delivery of you message about Jesus on the cross. The spirit of your presentation truly shows the love you have for Him.
    Whenever I hear explanations of three Gods in One, it is like looking at the Penrose triangle, or the impossible triangle. Google it, or copy and paste this link into your browser.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_triangle.

    I wish I could see what you see, but that triangle is all I get.



  • Elizabeth July 8, 2012 at 4:11 AM

    Are Mormons confused about the nature of the Holy Spirit?
    Yes...

    Joseph Smith taught the Holy Spirit is one distinct God of many Gods. "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and that these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods."

    ... Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith p. 370.

    But,

    Articles of Faith states: "He (the Holy Ghost) is an immaterial being possessed of a spiritual form and definite proportions."

    Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage

    "Jesus Christ…was filled with the divine substance or fluid called the Holy Spirit, by which He comprehended and spake the truth in power and authority, and by which He controlled the elements and imparted health and life to those who were prepared to partake of the same…The purest, most refined and subtle of all these substances and the one least understood or even recognized by the less informed among mankind is that substance called the Holy Spirit."

    Key to Theology, pp. 38, 46. Parley P. Pratt.

    Who does the Bible teach the Holy Spirit is?

    The Holy Spirit is God.

    "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

    Acts 5:3-4

    The Holy Spirit is Joined with the Father and Son:

    "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

    Matthew 28:19

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."

    II Corinthians 13:14
    The Holy Spirit is:

    Eternal (Hebrews 9:14)

    Omniscient (I Corinthians 2:10-11)

    Omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-13)

    Creator (Genesis 1:2)
    The Holy Spirit is called:

    The Comforter, He Abides forever (John 14:16)

    Brings to remembrance Christ's words (John 14:26)

    Testifies concerning Christ (John 15:26)

    Convicts the world of sin (John 16:7-8)

    Guides into all truth (John 16:13)

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 8:13 AM

    The difference between Christianity is we believe what the Book of Mormon taught since it was written by Creedal Christian and taught the Trinity , Within the nature of the One God here are three separate and distinct persons. 1X1X1=1

    2 Nephi 31:
    21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

    Alma 11:
    44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    Mormon 7:
    7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

    The Testimony of Three Witnesses
    And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris

    Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
    28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

    on the other hand Joseph Smith Jr departed from Creedal Christianity and taught

    Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
    "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

    1+1+1=3 gods just the opposite of what Jesus taught was the greatest command

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [ not three like Joseph Smith Jr taught ]
    30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ £ £This is the first commandment.
    31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 8:49 AM

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [ not three like Joseph Smith Jr taught ]
    30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
    31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    It is interesting when talking to a Mormon and if they are ask what is the greatest comandment they will respond with "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and never mention the first part since it's teaching they deny.


    Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods.

    Author: Bruce R. McConkie
    Source: Mormon Doctrine
    Chapter: 44

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 9:05 AM

    On ABC special, top Mormon compares Mormonism that believes in Works salvation versus Christian based theology of Grace



    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...mormon-temple/


    http://youtu.be/ADDF-bz6Zys


    Luke 18

    9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee [Mormon] and the other a tax collector[Christian]. 11 The Pharisee [Mormon] stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector[Christian] . 12 I... fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector[Christian], standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 1:26 PM

    THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL

    The Christian gospel is a message intended for all the inhabitants of the entire world, regardless of belief, race or creed. It tells of the amazing love of a holy and righteous Creator God for the sinful, fallen and wayward race of mankind:

    In His great mercy God devised a plan that catered for our fallen state. In order to rescue us both from the power that sin has over us as well as from its terrible eternal consequences; and also to enable us to become reconciled to His righteous rulership, He came down to earth in Christ, and took on a body of flesh. By becoming one of us He qualified to become our Redeemer. Although He was sinless He voluntarily, graciously, and humbly took upon Himself the burden of the guilt and the shame of our sins. Then He courageously paid the terrible price on our behalf, in our place, on the cross, so that we could be set free from condemnation. Only one condition applied: In order to qualify for salvation we have to identify Christ as being our Representative and Saviour, by trusting solely in Him, in His saving power, His ability, and His redeeming atonement on our behalf, on the cross. (See the article “What is Biblical Salvation?”
    This means that everyone, no matter what their past may have been, what sins they may have committed, what may be their race or station in life, or how weak their resolve may be, stands on level ground at the foot of the cross. And so there is hope for all, “in Christ.” What a Saviour!

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16, KJV)

    God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19, KJV).

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV).

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God (1 Peter 3:18, KJV)

    But the LDS gospel is not like that at all. Mormonism was designed specifically to draw folk away from God’s way of salvation. We know that this is so because firstly, as already mentioned above, Smith had maintained from the start that important teachings on salvation had been removed from the Bible. And secondly, their gospel is aimed at Christians or at folk who are familiar with or who have been brought up in a Christian society. Very roughly, their gospel goes something like this:

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 1:26 PM

    THE LDS GOSPEL

    In a vision God revealed to his latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith, that the Christian church (for which Christ had died) had became apostate shortly after the death of His apostles. So he removed His authority for the gospel from the earth. But in these latter days He has restored both the true gospel and His authority to the earth, through his prophet, Joseph Smith.

    The Bible that God gave us to use as our standard of truth, so that we could protect ourselves from spiritual deception or error, is not reliable due to incorrect translation and missing portions of important teachings on salvation.

    As the LDS church alone has God’s authority for the gospel, salvation can only be attained through membership of their organization, provided we have faith in Joseph Smith as the true prophet of God, are obedient to the laws and ordinances of their organization, and live righteously, to the end. (See the article on this site on Mormon Salvation).

    “Redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirements of the [Mormon] gospel, and a life of good works ….. The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith Alone has exercised an influence for evil” (Mormon Apostle James Talmage, Articles of Faith, pages 478-479).

    “There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 670).

    “There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 188.)

    As can be seen, the Mormon gospel would make no sense to anyone other than those with some sort of a Christian background or with at least a knowledge of biblical Christianity. It’s whole purpose is to create an environment where we turn away from God’s way of salvation through Christ alone and from the truths given to us in the Bible, to the deceptions taught by their false prophet, Joseph Smith.

    Sadly, even if Mormons do eventually become aware of the many contradictions and errors in LDS doctrines, the majority of them have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that they will continue to avoid the Christian church like a plague and still be convinced that the Bible is unreliable. So even then Mormonism will have served its purpose. Whether he stays in their church or whether he goes, the Mormon has been indoctrinated to the extent that he is reluctant to have anything to do with what happens to be the true, biblical gospel. And what is more, because of having been so thoroughly deceived by the LDS church, he feels he can never ever trust anyone else again in the spiritual arena.

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12, KJV)

  • Mitzi July 8, 2012 at 4:19 PM

    Darell,

    The problem for Joseph Smith is that in the new testament Jude 1:3 states " The faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." This statement was wrote before the close of the first century. In doing so, he had indicated that God had had revealed the Christian faith through Christ and the apostles, and that the new testament writings in conjunction of the old testament scriptures, made up the true knowledge of God." In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son." (Hebrews 1: 1-2) Apostle John wrote "This is the message we have heard from him [Jesus] and declare to you." (1 John 1:5) Paul warned about anyone that would bring another gospel other than that the one already received. "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galations 1:8)
    The God that gave us the bible tells us in Malachi " I am the Lord, I do not change." (Malachi 3:6)...(Isaiah 43:10 States "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." " Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is not God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8) If God does not know of ANY other god's than there can't be other god's on other planets or worlds. Joseph Smith said,"God, himself, was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heaven. I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see he was once a man like us and you have to to learn how to be gods yourselves." Are Mormons forgetting the first commandment "You shall have not other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)
    God reveals to us who he is in the Holy Bible. He tells us he has always existed and has never been less than he is today. "even from everlasting to everlasting thou art God." (Psalm 90:2) "I am the alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord.(Revelations 1:8) Jesus said " The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:29) "Jesus also said, God is spirit." (John 4:24) There can only be one God not billions of Gods on other planets.

    **My questions is, If Mormons refute these Bible verses for some reason or another.... Because they contradict the teachings of Joseph Smith, or because Mormons say that the Holy Bible has potential to be corrupt, and only true as far as being translated correctly, then why do Mormons even use the Bible at all?

  • George July 8, 2012 at 4:21 PM

    Official Biola University statement to be released soon.

  • George July 8, 2012 at 4:23 PM

    Official Statement link: bit.ly/RJ0uW9

    ;-)

  • Ivanhoe July 8, 2012 at 5:41 PM

    Song by former Mormon missionarys

    http://youtu.be/M5Db_HFmJdg

    Video by parents of these missionarys

    http://sacredgrovesonline.org/videos/unveiling_grace.htm

  • carpinteyroxuw July 8, 2012 at 7:50 PM

    Computer-programmering ,

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 10:35 PM

    Elizabeth,
    You may believe that we are confused at the nature of the Holy Spirit, but the proof is in the pudding. The nature of the Holy Spirit includes the Revelator of all Truth. Scripture declares that the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God, and the things of man by the spirit of man. Scripture also declares that divisions are expressly denounced. So if people divide from a church because they differ in understandings, it can only mean some (or all) were not hearing the Spirit. To divide is to disobey the will of God, which disobedience grieves the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit withdraws and leaves the individuals to understand by the spirit of man only.

    Now, please, apply this to "historic Christianity."

  • Darell Outhier July 8, 2012 at 10:43 PM

    What is the official Biola statement link?

    I will be away from the Internet for 3 days, I look forward to the questions presented and being friends.

    Charity.

  • Elizabeth July 9, 2012 at 9:23 AM

    Darell,

    This is the kicker....If you have accepted the true Jesus Christ into your heart, and asked him to be your savior, then as long as Jesus is in your heart, you also have the holy spirit in your heart as well. Jesus and the holy spirit are one. They are not separate. If a Christian has Jesus in their heart, but may happen to attend a so called "divided" Christian church, or even a non denominational Christian church, but that fact does NOT make it so Jesus leaves their heart. It would be very hard for someone to force Jesus to leave out of their heart (the holy spirit) and therefore lose their salvation. Jesus would NEVER leave a Christian due to the fact that they all do not attend the same church building!! It makes not sense to think that If we are all attending a church,regardless the building or name, that worships Jesus, and learns ONLY from his word, the Bible, that Jesus would withdraw himself taking the holy spirit away. That makes NO sense at all! Religion binds, it is about RELATIONSHIP anyway. I assure you that true Christians have understandings from the holy spirit.

    -The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

    It sounds to me that the LDS are the ones that truly do not have the spirit of God, because they can't understand the concept of the one true God.

  • Mitzi July 9, 2012 at 10:40 AM

    In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son." (Hebrews 1: 1-2)


    Joseph Smith was not needed. We have Jesus Christ.

  • Ivanhoe July 9, 2012 at 2:25 PM

    Mitzi July 9, 2012 at 10:40 AM

    In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son." (Hebrews 1: 1-2)

    Jesus is also our Priest and Apostle

    Hebrews 3

    1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

    Why would you want men that our so-called Apostles, Priest, and Prophets when the quintessential one is Jesus who is perfect, sinless, one we can talk to to daily. I remember when Monson got upset when member asked him a question, he said she should have talked to her Bishop instead of bugging him......

  • Hope July 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM

    Not only did Jesus claim the attributes of God, but He even accepted the title "God." Thomas, the ever-skeptical disciple, was unconvinced that Jesus had risen from the dead and wanted to see direct proof. However, when the Lord Jesus appeared to him, his only reaction was "My Lord and my God!"

    Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:28-29)

    What was Jesus' reaction to the title of God? Did Jesus rebuke him for calling Him "God"? No! In fact, Jesus praised Thomas for his belief. And the belief that Thomas exhibited was that Jesus was Lord and God. If Jesus were not God, accepting such a statement for truth would be a grievous sin. Either Jesus is God or He would have to be a sinner!
    Jesus claimed to be God

    Some skeptics say that Jesus and God were "one in purpose." However, this is a rather weak claim. Every disciple of Jesus Christ has the goal of being "one in purpose" with God the Father. Even so, Jesus never used the word "purpose" in His claims of oneness with God.

    "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

    Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord52 and claimed to be the first and the last,53 an obvious trait reserved for God alone.54

  • Ray July 12, 2012 at 6:24 PM

    Very well said Hope. :)

  • Darell Outhier July 12, 2012 at 6:57 PM

    Elizabeth,
    One of the fruits of the true Spirit is understanding. (True or False?) If the so called "divided" Christian Church had divided becasue of their confilict of understanding with the Christian Church that they divided from, did they get their new understanding from the Spirit? If so, then the Church they divided from did not understand by the Spirit and was not guided by that Spirit. Jesus organized His Church and left it in the care of special ministers who were called and ordained with Priesthood powers of authority and understandings to unite and perfect the converts as they applied the doctrines, principles and ordinances that were taught to them. They were Apostles, and they called and ordained mature saints to minister over local congregations, according to geographical convenience. See Heb. 5: 1-4 (4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.) So, when Churches divided, did they take that "honour" with them, besides having the Spirit's endorsement to make that split?

  • Joe July 12, 2012 at 7:30 PM

    I would like to know exactly where Mormons get their understanding from-Men that's are dead and long gone that were so called prophets(s)??? How would a TRUE spirit of understanding contradict or deviate with God's word? That sounds like a spirit of confusion and deception to me... If it doesn't fit into God's word, and instead conflicts with it, then it can't be from God! It is as simple as that. Christians use all of the bible as it is because there are no flaws, translation errors, or contradictions in the Holy Bible. God held his word together, just as he intended, and to last an eternity. Heavens and earth shall pass away but his word shall not.. Saying that Mormonism is the ONE true church( with the spirit of understanding) is like saying the bible is a bunch of bull crap. Mormons shouldn't even be carrying the bible around as they just disgrace it, chop it up, and twist it so terribly bad to fit their MAN made religion. I'll sick to Jesus. I will tell you what, Joseph Smith is going to have one BAD day when he has to stand before and answer to the one and only almighty God, Jesus himself....

  • Ivanhoe July 12, 2012 at 8:02 PM

    Darell Outhier July 12, 2012 at 6:57 PM, The Bibles very clear Jesus is the only official Melchizedek Priest

    (e) If the Jewish priests and their laws had been able to save us, why then did God need to send Christ as a priest with the rank of Melchizedek, instead of sending someone with the rank of Aaron—the same rank all other priests had?
    And when God sends a new kind of priest, his law must be changed to permit it. As we all know, Christ did not belong to the priest-tribe of Levi, but came from the tribe of Judah, which had not been chosen for priesthood; Moses had never given them that work.
    So we can plainly see that God’s method changed, for Christ, the new High Priest who came with the rank of Melchizedek,
    did not become a priest by meeting the old requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but on the basis of power flowing from a life that cannot end.
    And the psalmist points this out when he says of Christ, “You are a priest forever with the rank of Melchizedek.”
    Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
    It never made anyone really right with God. But now we have a far better hope, for Christ makes us acceptable to God, and now we may draw near to him.
    God took an oath that Christ would always be a Priest,
    although he never said that of other priests. Only to Christ he said, “The Lord has sworn and will never change his mind: You are a Priest forever, with the rank of Melchizedek.”
    Because of God’s oath, Christ can guarantee forever the success of this new and better arrangement.
    Under the old arrangement there had to be many priests so that when the older ones died off, the system could still be carried on by others who took their places.
    But Jesus lives forever and continues to be a Priest so that no one else is needed.
    He is able to save completely all who come to God through him. Since he will live forever, he will always be there to remind God that he has paid for their sins with his blood.
    He is, therefore, exactly the kind of High Priest we need; for he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin, undefiled by sinners, and to him has been given the place of honor in heaven.
    He never needs the daily blood of animal sacrifices, as other priests did, to cover over first their own sins and then the sins of the people; for he finished all sacrifices, once and for all, when he sacrificed himself on the cross.
    Under the old system, even the high priests were weak and sinful men who could not keep from doing wrong, but later God appointed by his oath his Son who is perfect forever.

  • Darell Outhier July 12, 2012 at 8:36 PM

    Joe,
    To test something by the standard of God's Word is all well and good. But how do we test someone's understanding of God's Word? That is exactly what Christianity has divided over. And God's Word, if I interpret it correctly, tells us that there are to be no divisions. So such divisions are the doings of the spirit of man, not inspired by the Spirit of God.

    The Bible is not perfect, simply because it is written in man's language. Man and woman are imperfect, including their capacity to understand. So how can you expect these two elements to tell us about a perfect God and His ways? There must be another factor in this equation to compensate. Scripture was written by imperfect men, with imperfect language, but written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. On the receiving end, the same elements apply. The reader must have the inspiration of the Holy Ghost when reading God's Word. Those that follow this simple formula will be united and become One, as God the Father, and His Son Jesus the Christ are One. Those that read without the inspiration of the Holy Ghost will conflict in their understandings and will divide. What does that say then, about the Churces that have divided.

    Since we enter Christian life as babes, so to speak, we understand very little at first. To keep us on the straight and narrow path that leads us to greater understanding, God gave us prophets and apostles in His original Church (see Ephesians 4), to help us comprehend His Word, but more important, how to learn for ourselves by personal and intimate inspiration with the Holy Ghost. One apostle rebuked the Hebrews for not understanding the things of Christ, Christians that should have been teachers by that point in their walk. But he told them of their back sliding by telling them that they need to learn again the first principles of the oracles of God. See Hebrews 5. What are those principles? They are essential to know Christ. Since the Hebrews learned these principles once before, where is that recorded in the Bible? If that is not recorded, is not the Bible incomplete?

  • Darell Outhier July 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM

    Hope,
    In what form will the disciples be one?

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

  • Darell Outhier July 13, 2012 at 12:33 AM

    Ivanhoe,

    Are you writing your own words, or are you copy and pasting from another source?

    When you say:.... "Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
    It never made anyone really right with God. ..." .... are you saying the people who needed the system for salvation are not saved because they were given an inferior system?

    I don't think any system of God will save people who choose to avoid (rebel against) the conditions that God gives us, that prepares us to receive the free gift of His salvation. And complying with God's requirements has nothing to do with negating the free nature of His Grace.
    Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all THEM THAT OBEY HIM;

  • Ivanhoe July 13, 2012 at 8:57 AM

    Darell Outhier July 13, 2012 at 12:33 AM

    Ivanhoe,

    Are you writing your own words, or are you copy and pasting from another source?

    Yes, it was a copy and paste of Hebrews 7

    Hebrews 7
    1 This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of the Most High God. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against many kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him;
    2 then Abraham took a tenth of all he had won in the battle and gave it to Melchizedek. Melchizedek’s name means “Justice,” so he is the King of Justice; and he is also the King of Peace because of the name of his city, Salem, which means “Peace.”
    3 Melchizedek had no father or mother£ and there is no record of any of his ancestors. He was never born and he never died but his life is like that of the Son of God—a priest forever.
    4 See then how great this Melchizedek is: (a) Even Abraham, the first and most honored of all God’s chosen people, gave Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils he took from the kings he had been fighting.
    5 One could understand why Abraham would do this if Melchizedek had been a Jewish priest, for later on God’s people were required by law to give gifts to help their priests because the priests were their relatives.
    6 But Melchizedek was not a relative, and yet Abraham paid him. (b) Melchizedek placed a blessing upon mighty Abraham,
    7 and as everyone knows, a person who has the power to bless is always greater than the person he blesses."
    first part of Hebrews 7 Living Bible

  • Ivanhoe July 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM

    18 Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
    19 It never made anyone really right with God. But now we have a far better hope, for Christ makes us acceptable to God, and now we may draw near to him.
    20 God took an oath that Christ would always be a Priest,
    21 although he never said that of other priests. Only to Christ he said, “The Lord has sworn and will never change his mind: You are a Priest forever, with the rank of Melchizedek.”
    22 Because of God’s oath, Christ can guarantee forever the success of this new and better arrangement.
    23 Under the old arrangement there had to be many priests so that when the older ones died off, the system could still be carried on by others who took their places.
    24 But Jesus lives forever and continues to be a Priest so that no one else is needed.
    25 He is able to save completely all who come to God through him. Since he will live forever, he will always be there to remind God that he has paid for their sins with his blood.

    Darell Outhier , ever wonder why no one in the Bible had Melchizedek Priesthood other than Jesus ?

  • Darell Outhier July 13, 2012 at 8:30 PM

    Ivanhoe
    Let me ask again,
    "When you say:...(or the Living Bible translation says). "Yes, the old system of priesthood based on family lines was canceled because it didn’t work. It was weak and useless for saving people.
    It never made anyone really right with God. ..." .... are you saying the people who needed the system for salvation are not saved because they were given an inferior system? "

    ".... ever wonder why no one in the Bible had Melchizedek Priesthood other than Jesus ?"
    Gathering information on this. No, I have not ever wondered.

  • Ivanhoe July 13, 2012 at 8:48 PM

    Darell Outhier July 13, 2012 at 8:30 PM

    Ivanhoe
    Let me ask again

    Quote from Bible so yes I believe it

  • Darell Outhier July 13, 2012 at 11:04 PM

    Ivanhhoe,

    Clarification please.
    So these souls who did not have a fair chance at salvation because God established an inferior Priesthood system, are forever unsaved (damned, in hell, forever lost etc.) for God's fault and no fault of their own. Is that what we are supposed to believe?

    I am still trying to fathom how anyone could believe a perfect God could establish an inferior and useless priesthood. Or how they could even consider any possibility that people are damned for circumstances beyond their own control or choice.

  • Ray July 13, 2012 at 11:05 PM

    As a Christian I learned that Jesus is the ONLY one who holds the melkizedek preisthood and only direct descendants of Aaron can hold the aaronic priesthood. I don't really know why the LDS think otherwise. Also, I don't see the Christian church to be devided. I know many Christians from different denominations but we all learn the same thing. I have gone to several non denominational churches and a baptist church. Each one had the same beliefs because we only learned from the Bible. If you follow that as God's word and don't try to add, take away or change parts of it ( I think that is pretty simple) you will be on the right path. When going to church you just can't be a mindless zombie! Pay attention! My husband was going to a church at one time and the pastor was talking about a certain point in the Bible and he said, "well I don't think Jesus ever did that." Run for the door! No matter what church you go to, pay attention. If it contradicts with God's word, don't go anymore. This is a rarity, but it can happend. Love God with your mind, He gave us all one. We are able to think :)

  • Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 3:26 AM

    Ray,
    Are Calvinists Christians? They teach differently to the max. Do Catholics believe the same and worship the same? Did not Christianithy divide from Catholicism? History reveals volumes of contentious bouts between denominations. I have not doubts whatsoever that an apostasy from the Church that Jesus established has occured.

    I wish I could provide a clear refrence Biblically as to the Melchizedek Priesthood. As I pointed out earlier, and no one here disputed it, the Bible is not complete and has many examples of missing scripture. Nevertheless, there are several refrences to "Priests and Levites", indicating two separate levels of Priesthood, one pertaining to the ministeries, and the other to the "chores" of responsibilites in upkeep as needed. They both are means of service to the needs of the people of God.

  • Ivanhoe July 14, 2012 at 9:11 AM

    Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 3:26 AM

    Nevertheless, there are several refrences to "Priests and Levites", indicating two separate levels of Priesthood, one pertaining to the ministeries, and the other to the "chores" of responsibilites in upkeep as needed. They both are means of service to the needs of the people of God.

    Chapter and verse in New Testament era where we have Priests and Levites, since Jesus is now our Priest . Hebrews 1:1 ; whole chapter of Hebrews 7

  • Ray July 14, 2012 at 3:21 PM

    I honestly have never heard of Calvinists so I don't know what they believe or teach. Any religion or "deonomination" that strays from the path of the Bible, I wouldn't trust. I know that Roman catholics believe several things that are no where to be found in the Bible. Like how they believe that Mary lived a virgin life. Personally, I stay away from any church that strays from what the Bible says because I can't trust it. As for calling these denominations Christian, honestly I haven't studied them to the extent that I have studied the LDS faith and Jehovah's Witnesses. I can't say for sure if their beliefs would affect their salvation. I wouldn't stray from the Bible though. I just would not risk believing something that a man came up with rather than listening to God's word. I don't think that the LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. Both say they believe in Jesus Christ but looking at the facts of it all, it is clearly not the same Jesus. It has to be the Jesus Christ of the Bible you put your faith in and ask into your heart. You know what, I used to think that the LDS were Christians. Just because I didn't know what they believed. I had no clue that eternal progression was part of the doctorine. That is damning alone. But after looking into it, I have seen many many things that make mormonism unchristian. The difference between mormonism and christianity is 100%.

  • S. July 14, 2012 at 4:50 PM

    I don't like the mormon church because my Lord and savior's name is on the church, yet they do not even come close to believing the same things as other Christian churches teach. Believing that you can become a god? Really? That's pretty huge and it is NOT in the Bible. The Bible does not say that Jesus and Satan are brothers. It does not say that God has sex with his spirit wives and that we are born in heaven before we are born on earth. It does not say that there is marriage in heaven, in fact it says there isn't. It does not say to baptize the dead. It does not say that there are three levels of heaven. Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, not in the garden. God was never a man. Jesus IS GOD! The Holy Spirit IS GOD! God the Father IS GOD! Our God is not just a god He is THE ONLY God. Temples are no longer needed because the body of Christ is the temple of God. God did not have a sexual relationship with Mary. Some of the symbols and rituals performed inside the LDS temple are one in the same with satanic rituals. God the Father does NOT have a body of flesh and bone so Joseph Smith couldn't have seen him! (in fact in the first copy of his account of God in the forest, it did not say that there were two personages. It said there was one). You go to hell if you do not believe that Jesus is God and he died, paying the price for our sins on the cross and rose three days later. This is all in the Bible.

  • Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM

    Ray,
    What you indicated here is the bottom line. " I can't say for sure if their beliefs would affect their salvation." Salvation is indeed our greatest need.

    I mentioned that there was an apostasy, whereas the truth about God, as well as His Church and ordained ministers were lost to the people. One of those truths that was lost is the doctrine of salvation.
    Today's Christianity teaches that we were created from nothing, or "exnihilo." Nothing about us ever existed until God brought us, or created us into existence. This must mean that everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. We are very different as individuals, and God made us that way. Some are made humble and obedient, and they utilize their free will to obey God and are saved. Others are prideful and disobedient, and they use their free will to do evil, and are thus damned. Yet God created them that way. How can a loving God send a soul to eternal damnation for being exactly what and how God created him to be?

    Because of the apostasy, there needs to be a restoration of all things. I cannot prove to others that my faith is that restoration. I would not try to do so. I can only show evidences that point to that fact. A person must prove it to and for themselves. I have done that and in so doing, I understand why it cannot be be proven to others. The understanding must come by the Spirit, because as scripture tells us, the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God.

    Because of the apostasy, the understandings of many doctrines doctrines and scriptures have evolved as the result of man's understanding. A simple evidence of this (understanding by the spirit of man) is the many denominations within Christianity today. They divided because they understood the Bible differently. If they were all listening to the same Spirit of God, they would have understood the same thing. That is a foundational fact. To follow Christ, we must follow His Spirit.
    Now, because the understanding of man is held as the standard, one must be careful that when this restoration of all things comes from God, that they do not use the false standard of man to judge what is of God. Yes, the Bible is the standard, but even that can be misunderstood if not received and read by the Spirit of God. The Bible is a document written in man's imperfect language, trying to discribe the things of a perfect God. It is a given failure to try and make sense of the Bible without the perfect inspiriation and revelation of the Holy Spirit to assist the reader.

    Acts 3
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Why would there be a need of a restitution, if nothing was damaged or lost?

  • Ivanhoe July 14, 2012 at 7:58 PM

    Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM, can you find this teaching in the Bible ?


    Adam and Others helped in creation, it is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith. Doctrines of Salvation
    Vol. 1 p 74-75


    Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie
    1954 Deseret Book Company
    ADAM HAD THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. Some people have the idea that the Ten Commandments were first given by Moses when he directed the children of Israel and formulated their code of laws. This is not the case. These great commandments are from the beginning and were understood in righteous communities in the days of Adam. They are, in fact, fundamental parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the gospel in its fulness was first given to Adam.

  • Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 8:45 PM

    Ivanhoe,

    As I pointed out, there are many things not in the Bible that the Bible teaches or makes refrence to. If you take away prophets and revelation, you have nothing to answer so many questions with, except for the speculations and inferior scholarship of man.

  • Ray July 14, 2012 at 11:25 PM

    When I said that I was not speaking of the LDS. Just for the faiths that I have not studied enough to have an opinion about. I don't have any right to make up an opinion about something when I don't have enough information to do so. I know what the LDS believe, I've looked into it a lot. One thing I am certain of is the belief that our God is not the only God can effect your salvation. The LDS believe that it is possible to obtain godhood. That one belief alone, not even considering what other beliefs that the LDS have, is so dangerous.
    Didn't God say: "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. -Isaiah 43:10

  • Lilly July 14, 2012 at 11:46 PM

    You know, everyone has the right to their own faith/religion...whatever you want to call it. God gave us all a free will. I'm sure the LDS and Christians here can agree with that. I do not have anything against the Jewish relgion, Budists, or pretty much any other religion out there. They have their own thing. Of course, I always pray for them that they will get to hear about Jesus so that their choice can be purely choice and not lack of knowledge for the truth. However, there is a BIG difference between these relgions and the LDS. This difference is that the LDS claim to be Christians. The Jewish people do not claim to be Christian. Scientologists do not claim to be Christian. Muslims do not claim to be Christain. Yes, they all think that they are the "right" choice but atleast they are not a wolf in sheeps clothing. I have a serious issue with the LDS church because they have lead so many people away from the truth with a false Jesus. Unless you know your Bible, you would never know that you were being deceived from the beginning. The LDS church plasters Jesus Christ on their front door but teaches a COMPLETLY different gospel. God said his word would last even after heaven and earth. Why then do the LDS teach a gospel that changes so much of what God's word says? 1800 years after Christ, God just decides to change his mind? No, I don't think I could get a child at my church to believe that. I can't wrap my mind around how so many millions of people have fallen into this church. I pray for them every day. Satan is the ultimate liar. And the perfect plan would be to disguise a church that appeared Christian...claiming to believe in Jesus but teach things that go against God's word. Enough to effect a soul's salvation. People want to know Jesus, and so many fall into this trap. Please...read the Bible as a child! Pray about it, study it, compare what it says to the LDS teachings. You will find that it is very different. Everyone has the right to their own faith, but claiming to be Christian when you are not is stealing souls. I know that the LDS church will never stop until Christ comes again. But I can only pray that you of the LDS faith just stop and think about the teachings.

  • Darell Outhier July 15, 2012 at 2:22 AM

    Ray,
    My question was independent of any other faith. Christians are asking me to come to the Jesus of the Bible for salvation. I am asking Christians just what is salvation to them when you consider the purpose of our creation as I outlined. Let me repost it.

    Today's Christianity teaches that we were created from nothing, or "exnihilo." Nothing about us ever existed until God brought us, or created us into existence. This must mean that everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. We are very different as individuals, and God made us that way. Some are made humble and obedient, and they utilize their free will to obey God and are saved. Others are prideful and disobedient, and they use their free will to do evil, and are thus damned. Yet God created them that way. How can a loving God send a soul to eternal damnation for being exactly what and how God created him to be?

    Do you have an aswer to that Ray?

  • Ivanhoe July 15, 2012 at 9:26 AM

    Darell Outhier July 15, 2012 at 2:22 AM

    Ray,
    Today's Christianity teaches that we were created from nothing, or "exnihilo." Nothing about us ever existed until God brought us, or created us into existence

    Yes we know everything is eternal in Mormonism, In Christianity only God is eternal. In Mormonism humans, animals, plants and even this earth are eternal . this is pure paganism

  • Ivanhoe July 15, 2012 at 2:22 PM

    Mormon Temple rites on UTUBE


    http://youtu.be/ASF9ZHnJdMg

  • Mitzi July 15, 2012 at 2:38 PM

    Darell,

    God created us with a spirit (connection to him) and a soul, which is composed of our feelings, beliefs,personality (essentially makes us who we are).. God also also created us with a body, composed of flesh, that has FREE WILL to CHOOSE to live how it so desires. God doesn't purposely create a person with characteristic flaws which in turn cause the person to turn bad. When SIN came into the world it caused our spirits to break, so our spirits then needed renewed by the spirit of Jesus! Some people have not accepted Jesus(or the correct Jesus) Therefore, they are living with broken/dead spirits(haven't been born again) and this in return can potentially allow their flesh to consume their soul...The spirit and the flesh are in a constant tug- a- war battle for the soul, and if the spirit is not alive, and able to cleanse the soul, then the soul is going to be controlled by the flesh..Thus making the soul dirty and this person may be disobedient... After all is said and done, the decisions that people make while here on earth, decide where they go for eternity, as it is not God who sends anyone to Hell. People will be held accountable for their actions and there is a hell. However, that's not God's desire or will for us, nor did he create us to all be "good" robots either..God wanted to know if we would choose him as our father, or the devil as our father. A person can only have one Father. God knew there would be nastiness amongst this world because of sin and the devil...There are bad spirits, false prophets, and plain evil things that happen. The devil is the one that runs this wordly system for now, he is on the lose more than ever trying to take people to hell with him....
    EVERYONE is created to seek God, we all long for him to renew our broken spirits with his spirit, but some people smother him out, fill the void with other things, or are simply blinded to the real God(Jesus)... All of which are choices. God does not push himself on anyone or force himself into a person's life... God put the truth out there in his word ( THE HOLY BIBLE). We have all heard the name of Jesus, and heaven is 100% equal opportunity, it is a free, simple gift of grace! Thank you JESUS! Even the blinded ones still have a chance to see the truth. Hopefully they do so before it is too late. Time is running out!

  • Ray July 15, 2012 at 5:25 PM

    Say you could have any wish in the world, the one thing you really want (in this hypothetical situation) is for this certain man or woman to fall in love with you. So you make this wish and it comes true. This person will do anything for you. He/she loves you. But this wish wouldn't be quiet as sweet as you once thought it was. This person loves you because they had no choice. You wished it that way. Isn't love more sweet when that one person picks you to be with out of everyone else in the world? This makes you special. When I think of God giving us a free will to choose him or to choose another, I think of this. God doesn't want robots after his love. He wants those who choose him and choose to seek him. Of course, as any father would be, this makes him sad that most people in this world do not choose him. God is a fair and loving God and he gives everyone a chance. You must remember that God did not create hell for humanity. He created hell for satan and his angels(demons). Sin entered this world and what causes people to fill that hole inside all of us with sinful things rather than God. Since they did not choose God, they must go to hell. I commend Mormons for how they live their life, morale wise. But God did warn against false Jesus'. God gives EVERYONE a chance. Even the LDS reading these comments from Christian brothers and sisters are getting a chance. You have read the truth, heard the truth and choose to pursue the Jesus of the LDS faith rather than the Jesus of the Bible. That's fine. Everyone should choose to live how they want. So many Christians are concerned because time is running out. Make your final choice now before it's too late. Remember that heaven rejoyces everytime someones name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. :) it's a wonderful thing to be saved. Like Mitzi said above, heaven is open to anyone if they choose Jesus, the true Jesus. It's so simple, a free gift of God!

  • Joe July 15, 2012 at 6:58 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEbuE_eNv-A&feature=youtu.be


    John 10:16-Matt 15:24 Mormons take these verses out of context!! Watch out for Mormons twist on these verses to fit their own spin ......"Other sheep" is not the people of the America's. It was in reference to anyone that was NOT a Jew!

  • Ivanhoe July 15, 2012 at 8:18 PM

    Darell Outhier July 14, 2012 at 8:45 PM

    Ivanhoe,
    As I pointed out, there are many things not in the Bible that the Bible teaches or makes refrence to. If you take away prophets and revelation, you have nothing to answer so many questions with, except for the speculations and inferior scholarship of man.

    The Book Of Mormon must have same speculation and shoddy scholarship ?

    teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon, The Articles of Faith “ Mormon Creed” or Bible.
    1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
    2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
    3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
    4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
    5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
    6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
    7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
    8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
    9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
    10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
    11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
    12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
    13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
    14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
    15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
    16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
    17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
    18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
    19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
    20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
    21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

  • Ivanhoe July 15, 2012 at 11:14 PM

    David and Solomon and Polygamy

    D&C 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—


    Jacob 2:24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

    wonder with Mormon so-called scripture Mormons trust ?

  • Darell Outhier July 16, 2012 at 1:36 AM

    Mitzi and Ray,
    Thank you for actually addressing my question directly. And for the time invested in personal thought.
    In both of your comments, the correct idea of our use of free will is a major component of what we are judged for. Considering that free will is exactly the same for every individual, and the obvious observations we have that people us that free will to use their time and talents for selfish purposes or for selfless purposes, denotes that their character differs. Where does that character come from and why are they so different? Is my statement true when I say everything we are is the result of what God made us to be? As I see it, if we were created from nothing, then it must be so.

    Mitzi, you said: "God doesn't purposely create a person with characteristic flaws which in turn cause the person to turn bad." Then did He create some "accidently" that way? You also said: " God also also created us with a body, composed of flesh, that has FREE WILL to CHOOSE to live how it so desires." .... Is it the body with flesh that has free will? Or is it the spirit and soul that has free will to use that body how it desires? In either application, free will is the same for everyone, so how it is applied denotes difference in the individual. Who created us different?

    You both mentioned "robots" in the idea that we are not pre-programmed. Yet if we are created from nothing, what enters us that did not come from God, that causes us to act independently? Is it temptation? If so, what gave one person greater strength to fight it off? Or as Ray profoundly eluded to, greater love to make the correct choice for the correct reason?

    The answers to these questions weigh heavily in my heart, because they point to a True and Loving Father.

  • Mitzi July 16, 2012 at 10:56 AM

    Darell,

    Believe me, I have sat on pondered on the question of why some people turn away from God, and smother the void with world pleasures, and why others choose him and accept Jesus into their lives. I don't really have answers down to DNA specifics. That is something people are just not meant to know-Just leave it to God! God created us all differently, and unique, but that does not mean that he created some to be damned from the beginning. I strongly believe that heaven is EQUAL opportunity and we ALL have a chance to get there. It was never Gods intention to send people to hell, until sin came into the world, and our spirits broke. God blew life into and created Adam. Adam was created with a perfect spirit (in God's image because God is a perfect spirit) and coming down from a line of Adam&Eve, we were intended to have the same perfect spirit, but after the fall of man, sin broke those spirits. We can't take dead spirits, or sin with us into God's kingdom! This is why we need Jesus to renew/make our spirits come alive, and we need Jesus to forgive us of our sins as well.
    God doesn't make it hard or complicated on as to how we can get to his Kingdom, it's so simple! Like I said before, it's a free gift of grace! However, the catch is, a person must choose to accept it! Yes, Jesus died for all mankind, but it is up to us if we want to accept his gift, and accept him into our lives. God left us a road map and a guide on as how to live. God didn't stick us here and say "Have at it,live how you please, you have free will to do whatever you want,then you will have a second chance after death to choose me, and believe in me, after you see me." Ummm no, that is not how it works, we have the Bible to instruct us how to live. It is still comes down to a person's own life choices, decisions, and if they choose him, or deny him while here on this earth. He wants to know what we choose. Again, he did not want us to be robots.
    I believe that nurture and a person's surroundings can affect their final outcome as well. The devil is on the loose and he is taking many people to hell with him as possible. Sin, temptations, false beliefs, and lust of the flesh is rampant in this world around us. People get caught up in it. People are getting sidetracked and blindsided as well. People enjoy pleasing their flesh. I believe it is the flesh that has free will, it then influences our soul. The lust of the flesh can make the soul dirty. The spirit is what cleanses our soul, while the flesh is working overtime against the spirit trying to dirty our soul up.

  • Mitzi July 16, 2012 at 10:57 AM

    Continued....

    I think that some are able to fight it off temptations simply because they have the spirit of God inside their spirit, which in return helps control the flesh.I see friends who are not saved( their spirits are dead) They participate in daily fornication (living together outside of marriage) and feel as though there is nothing wrong with it and feel no guilt or shame. They are engulfed in temptations because they have smothered out Jesus and are filling the void with other things. If I was to do the same, I would be eaten alive inside with guilt. My soul knows that it is wrong and a sin. I do me best to stay clear of sin because I have a connection with God. Jesus is in my heart, has renewed my spirit, and is living inside me. On the other hand, my friends that have no true connection (they just say they believe in God) feel as though they can live how they so desire. They are living in their flesh. They have all have heard that God says, it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage, but many think the word "sin" is cliche these days.
    As for myself, I'm not trying to earn something, or score points by being good. It is simply out of a fear and respect of the Holy spirit that lives inside me, whom guides me, and calls me to repent for sins. Having Jesus inside me has changed the way I live! However, even born again Christians will still have occasional mess ups, because we are ALL born with a sinful nature. Until we shed and rid this flesh forever, we can't be sinless and perfect. Only one day in heaven will this flesh be Gone. Thank Jesus.

  • Ivanhoe July 16, 2012 at 10:59 AM

    Darell Outhier July 16, 2012 at 1:36 AM

    Darrell forgets the Mormon Love which killed men women and children at Meadow Mountain

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k7kAbHgOyo

  • Darell Outhier July 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM

    Thanks Ivanhhoe, that was really needed and inspired on your part.

  • Ivanhoe July 16, 2012 at 6:06 PM

    And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

    Since the Doctrine and Covenants teaches cursing why not killing, Darell

  • Darell Outhier July 17, 2012 at 1:36 PM

    IH,
    Cursing and killings are not ideal, to say the least. Yet they become necessary when the forces of evil threaten people who desire nothing but to serve their God. Read the OT. To everything there is a season, and unfortunately killing and cursing has always been a part of the history of God's people. Since evil prevails in the hearts of men, nothing has changed in this world of tears. But it should never be man's decision alone.

    Mitzi, your comments are important and need time to sort out my words and feelings.

  • Mitzi July 17, 2012 at 2:38 PM

    Darell,

    Thanks!! It means a lot that you are taking time to ponder these things. I really feel as though God has you here for a reason. Otherwise, you would have shut yourself off to this information, and been long gone already!! Also, while we are on the topic of spirits, I wanted to mention to you how I feel about another belief in Mormonism and get your thoughts on it as well. This has to do with Jesus and Lucifer being brothers: Get ready to start brainstorming!
    O.K. so I am curious as to how Jesus and Lucifer can be brother's because wouldn't that make it so they both have the same spirits? How can the God of Mormonism (a god of flesh and bones) give birth to spirits? According to the bible, "flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit"-John 3:6.... Mormonism believes that Jesus was just a man that worked his way to Godhood...So, if Jesus was just a man who worked to Godhood, then how can he be a brother to Lucifer?? One would have to have a spirit of a man (Jesus) and the other a spirit of an angel (Lucifer). How can the God of Mormonism, that is flesh, give birth to both human spirits and angel spirits? This is so contradicting, right? What is even worse about this picture is that is like putting Jesus at the same level as an angel. I see this as Lucifer trying to lower God down to his level. Lucifer wanted to be God that is why he was kicked out of heaven.

    This is what Christians believe:God is the father, son(Jesus), and holy spirit all in one. They have different jobs but they are all one God. It was actually Jesus (who is God) that created Lucifer...Jesus is God manifested in Flesh. Jesus has always been with, and as God, from the beginning. However, Jesus was not manifested in flesh until he came to earth. Jesus has the spirit of God. Jesus does not have a spirit of a man nor does he have a spirit of an angel. Jesus did not get here by fleshly sexual relations. He came from the holy spirit because once again, spirit gives birth to spirit. He was God's only begotten son- ONLY BEGOTTEN means that he is the only son that came directly out of and from God. All other people came through a line from Adam and Eve. God sent himself down here to die for our sins, because the wages of sin were death, and we needed a PERFECT sacrifice, and only flesh can die, and only God is perfect!! We are saved by grace. It was truly his love for us that held him to the cross. Not the nails. A person must know the TRUE Jesus to be saved and receive the gift of salvation...

  • Ivanhoe July 17, 2012 at 5:47 PM

    Darell Outhier July 17, 2012 at 1:36 PM

    IH,
    Cursing and killings are not ideal, to say the least

    I would say Darell you are walking in darkness

    And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy; But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you (3 Nephi 12:43-44).

    In the Bible, Romans 12:14, we are counseled: "Bless them which persecute you; bless, and curse not."

    In spite of these clear teachings in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith gave a revelation which sanctioned the cursing of ones enemies:

    And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25).

  • Ivanhoe July 18, 2012 at 11:51 AM

    The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.' These last statements were made during the last summer. The number of armed men at Adam-ondi-Ahman was between three and four hundred" (History of the Church 3:167).

  • Ray July 19, 2012 at 2:22 AM

    Good thing God made salvation so simple, or there would be a lot more lost people out there. I once spoke to a mormon woman about salvation. I told her of the two commandments that Jesus gave in the New Testiment. 1. Believe in him 2. Love thy neighbor as yourself. He said nothing about temple work or prophets of God. I told her all she has to do for salvation is to pray to God, asking Lord Jesus into her heart. Confessing the truth that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and only by his blood are we free from all sins so that we will live with Him in heaven one day. She didn't do this, sadly. She told me that if salvation were that simple, there would be no unbelievers. The good news is that salvation is that simple, the sad thing is the people still choose to reject Jesus. I will never understand it. There are even people who ask Jesus into their heart then say to him "I don't want you anymore." It's crazy, but it happens sometimes. I just think that everyone is different. At one point in my life I didn't know Jesus. I was afraid of the whole religion thing but I discovered that becomming a Christian isn't about religion, it is about having a personal relationship with Christ Jesus. And that, is nothing to be afraid of. I can go to church and worship my Lord Jesus and talk with other people about how Jesus is so great and not feel the bondage of a religious institution.

  • Darell Outhier July 19, 2012 at 2:34 AM

    Ih,

    Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Cursing the wicked is replete in scripture, and is a last desperate effort against them. I learned as a very young man that such cursing is not done in anger, hatred or vengeance, but in sorrow. If you would actually study our Church History and the writings of Joseph Smith, instead of browsing the convenient excerpts you copy and past from uniformed and biased writers, you would understand his overall conviction to true and correct principles.

    Your accusations of events so long ago bite you in the back side, because time brings out the true colors of people, individually and collectively. If the early Mormons followed such darkness and wickedness , and their motive was self serving and evil (as you are trying so desperately to paint the picture), what we have today would have been impossible. The LDS Church is second to none in humanitarian and compassionate efforts world wide. Those true colors have always been at the root of its existence. As a small organization in the early years, compliments of a people who took care of their own echoed everywhere. By taking care of their own created growth and established a foundation to structure the means to extend the same care to countless individuals outside of our faith.

    Please do not be so quick to judge who is in darkness. You know nothing about me, and your assertions do not compliment you.

  • Darell Outhier July 19, 2012 at 5:42 AM

    Mitzi, still trying to get back to where we left off. But your questions are important so I will give it my best.

    That "Jesus and Lucifer as brothers" thing is the most twisted accusation of incomplete nonsense I have ever heard, and the resolution is so simple. It is so obvious that whoever started this "shocking news" was intentionally telling only part of our beliefs to cause trusting Christians to compare it to their beliefs and condemn it as a piece of the puzzle that cannot fit in their doctrine.

    In our puzzle, where this piece of the puzzle SHOULD be fitted to see OUR big picture, Jesus is our elder Brother. We are all brothers and sisters, and there were good and bad individuals mixed in, much as you would see in many large families today. We lived together as spirits before this life. Lucifer is my brother. He is your brother (in our beliefs) and that is not a bad or evil thing on our part. We did not have anything to do with his downfall, those are consequences for his choices (just as we will have consequences or blessings for our choices here).

    Very little is known, or revealed about the mechanics or specifics of our pre-earth life, and how spirits are born. There are mysteries of Godliness and all for a good reason, I'm sure. Milk before the meat is a genuine and true Christian principle, and we certainly could not claim to be Christian if there were no mysteries, not seen by others, and requiring faith to accept until it is given us to know. I personally view creation as one of the ultimate powers in the universe, and most important to withhold the technology of such understanding from man, .... simply because look at how man abuses the knowledge (which can empower) we have been given. Yet God has seen fit to share with us one sacred aspect of the power of creation, to be a part of bringing life into this world.

    Continued ...

  • Darell Outhier July 19, 2012 at 5:43 AM

    Continuation ...
    And that brings up another "accusation of false doctrine" Mormon's are charged with. I hear those words so often: "God had SEX with Mary!"
    All we know for sure is that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost, and the Seed of the Son of God was within her, 9 months pending. An early LDS Church leader respectfully made a statement (can't remember who at this time, or the exact words) to a specific audience he deemed ready to hear it, that this encounter mirrored what we experience in procreation. The critics think this belittles or carnalizes God and jump all over it, making carnal assumptions never intended to associate with the original statement. If it is so (and I don't know one way or the other, but consider the potential) it simply means that we do not see the higher or sacred nature of procreation because we look at it through carnal eyes. As a result, sexuality is another abuse of man's understanding when viewed carnally, yet it may very well be part of the eternal nature of creation that they do not (nor cannot) see until they approach the spiritual purpose of life by overcoming the world (see 1John 5:4-5) .

    "IF" this is true, that would only reveal the lustful nature of those critics who only think of and see this act as carnal, as they take the comment way out of context and establish their true ignorance. Again, I emphasize that there is no sure undestanding given other than Mary being overshadowed in the Spirit, a realm that carnal minds will never understand. Obviously, I have given it much thought and admit my own limitations. What I do know for sure is that God has placed the highest of emphasis on keeping pure the power of procreation, with consequences for violation right next door to the taking of innocent life. That suggests to me that just like all the commandments and purposes of God, it will be a part of the Heavenly life. I will never know for certain until I too overcome the world, so please never quote me out of that context. (Biola observers as well)

  • Mitzi July 19, 2012 at 8:49 AM

    Darell,

    You may believe what you just stated however.....

    Brigham Young taught:

    "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
    was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten
    of his father, as we were of our fathers." (JOD, vol. 8, p. 115).

    "The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
    the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
    associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
    been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
    lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
    He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully.. He had a lawful right
    to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
    Son. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
    and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
    wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
    Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).


    So, now that these two LDS leaders are dead it no longer is applicable???





  • Mitzi July 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM

    Darell,

    I have heard many Devout Mormons say that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. In fact, Mormons say that Jesus and Lucifer both stood in front of God, and God asked them both the same question, and Jesus had the better answer, while Lucifer had a more selfish answer.

    It still makes no sense how your God, that was once a man, can birth both angel and human spirits. Lucifer has an angel spirit, which is different than the spirit of man, and a man's spirit, and an angles spirit, are both different than the spirit of God! Lucifer can't possibly be my brother. I am in no relation to the angels. Once again, they have different spirits than human spirits!

    Creation was spoke about in the Bible in the book of Genesis. It is not really a "mystery" as to how things began to a true Christian that follows the bible! We believe that God has always existed and he created everything. God created Adam and Eve and then people came down in a line through them. We are all God's creation, but we are not technically his children until we are saved, and born again. In the bible, Jesus tells the pharisees they can not see truth and the devil is their father. It is when you are saved, that God becomes your father, if you are unsaved than the devil is your father. Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN son. He was the only one that was birthed from God. We were not!

    Do you believe in this whole spirit baby pre-existence simply because some Mormon doctrine said so? The bible speaks about NONE of this theory and I will still go back to the bible verse that flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit (John 3:6) Your God, who was once a man, and has flesh and bones, can't possibly give birth to spirit babies. This would be in extreme contradiction to the bible. Secondly, God the father, being once a man, and now existing in flesh and bones, is a contradiction to the bible as well.

    Yes, Mary was overcome by the Holy spirit,and this is how the seed of the son was placed in her (The bible specifically says HOLY SPIRIT) With that said,Jesus could not be just a regular man, with a regular man's spirit-Flesh gives birth to Flesh and Spirit gives birth to Spirit. If Jesus was birthed by the holy spirit,he would have to be more than just a fleshly man, and more than just God's son. He would literally have to be God manifested in flesh.

    How was Jesus just a man when he was perfect his entire life? Have you ever known any man to be perfect? NO! Only God(of the holy bible/alpha and Omega) is perfect. Jesus didn't even have to work his way to Godhood. He was already sinless and perfect. Jesus could not have been born a son from a man that was also once a man, on some other planet, because even that man at one point in time was sinful, non-perfect, and worked his way to Godhood! We all know there was no working for Jesus, he was already perfect. This completely crumbles the theory that Jesus was just an man and elder brother.

  • Mitzi July 19, 2012 at 10:02 AM


    "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. John 1:2 The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

    “I will send the Spirit of truth … for he lives with and will be in you … I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you”. (John 14:17-18, 20)

    Jesus says“I and the Father are one” (John 10:38 ;17:11,21) Jesus says“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (John 14:11)

    There are occasions when God refers to himself in plural terms (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8)

  • Mitzi July 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM

    Darell,

    By the way the Mormon church is not unified. There are many splinter groups of Mormonism, each one feeling they are the one true group. There have been over a hundred different groups claiming to follow Joseph Smith as their founder, and they all vary in their doctrines. FLDS started due to Joseph Smith. The LDS church broke away from that because they had a different understanding on polygamy.

    Today, polygamy may not be practiced in main stream Mormonism. However, it was practiced and promoted by both Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young. You can't change the fact that those two prophets are the foundation of the Mormon church...After all, Joseph Smith started the Mormon religion.

    Ex of divisions: There is the reorganized LDS church which is called, The community of Christ, and then there is the Church of Christ temple group, and then there is all the polygamists break off groups...They all have the same founder, Joseph Smith, but all use and believe different doctrine, and now have different prophets and apostles... They all have different understandings. So which spirit are they following?

    The LDS church is not unified as they try to make people believe!!

  • Darell Outhier July 19, 2012 at 8:33 PM

    Mitzi,
    Splinter groups are apostates. Apostates are those that never learned how to learn by the Spirit, and would not receive correction from the oracles of God. They are not recognized (in the LDS Church) as part of the body of Christ. And that is the difference. Any division or splinter that separates from the main body severs itself from its source of true Nourishment. A number of these splinters can unite and find strength in numbers, and appease each other and think they are nourished. And as they practice the true principles that they learned and kept, they will have some fruits of the Spirit, and they can and will do many good works that bless us all. But not all of the fruits. They are still divided by difference in understandings, a key factor that illustrates they do not listen and learn from the same Spirit.

    Believe what you will, but Jesus Christ restored His Church through a prophet, who was Joseph Smith. No man is the foundation or creator of "Mormonism." That would be impossible, and you would know that if you really studied (from unbiased viewpoint) the doctrines and history of this Church. Some have proclaimed that Satan is the source, which at least is more feasible since it is beyond man's capacity to have established this Church. That is each individuals choice and responsibility to find out for sure. I cannot prove to you what I have learned, and that is by Divine measure.
    But I can declare that if it was created by evil, its works would be evil. Critics say we teach of a false Christ (which indeed would be a great evil). I have made a simple challenge here, that you have seen and not responded to, that tests the foundation of our knowledge of Christ by knowing what the first principles of the oracles of God are, as illustrated in Hebrew 5. (At least, I have not seen response. Many posts here, help me if I missed that one.) And multiple topics and questions have been fired at me to distract us from that foundational principle. If we do not have that knowledge, we cannot know Christ. If we do not know Christ, we do not have His Spirit to give us understanding. So what is the use of any discussion beyond the first principles of the oracles of God, since such discussion will not be understood without that Spirit?

  • Darell Outhier July 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM

    Two thoughts that sum it all up.

    Proverbs 3: 5 ¶Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

  • Mitzi July 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM

    Darell,

    In reference to the oracles of God that you keep going on, and on, and on about.. I feel as though Dee already answered your question in great detail...The truth has been revealed to you over and over in these posts...I am not trying to be offensive but is seems as though the devil has a clever way of sidetracking from and twisting the truth. However,In the end, truth, justice, and light will prevail over darkeness, and evil...Just remember that.

    Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your MIND.’

    Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    Jesus states in Mark 12:30 to love God “with all your mind,” the word for “mind” is not mentioned in Deuteronomy 6:4 from where He quoted the Scripture. In fact, when the Scribe quoted that same Scripture back to Jesus in verse 33, He used a different word for “mind” than the one Jesus did. Nevertheless, Jesus accepted it as valid because of its similarities.

    The Greek word Jesus used for “mind” is dianoia, which means: Deep though, exercising the mind, to think through. The word the Scribe used for mind is sunesis, which means: A putting together, to figure out, intelligence. The Hebrew equivalent (taken from Jeremiah 31:33 translated in the KJV as “inward parts”) is qereb, which means: to approach or bring near—hence, to consider and think upon.

    Therefore, our mind is our intellect—the place where we analyze, figure-out and plan things; the place where knowledge and understanding are analyzed and manipulated to bring about a conclusion or decision.

    Loving God “with all our mind” means:

    •That EVERYTHING we put in or allow in our minds is right, true and moral.
    •That we align our conclusions and decisions based upon the commandments of God and the written Word of God in all situations. If things don't line up with his word, or contradict his word, it should not be trusted.

  • Mitzi July 20, 2012 at 4:51 PM

    Darell,

    In reference to your statement "But I can declare that if it was created by evil, its works would be evil."

    Here is what the bible would have to say about that:

    Galations 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that person be condemned!

    2 Corinthians 11:12-15: "But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds."
    -Hmm this sounds terribly familiar!!

    How do you know 100% that Jospeh Smith was a true prophet of God, and was not a decieving man, led by the devil? There is no evidence that anything in the BOM ever existed. In fact, there is more proof to say it is just a made up story, than anything else. There is a reason why it is labeled fiction while the bible is labled non fiction. Do you really think that a young boy was needed to restore a gospel that Jesus himself had already preached? I don't think Jesus would have came back to preach to "other sheep" things that were contradicting to what he already preached?! "Other sheep" was not even in reference to the people of America's! It referred to anyone that was not a Jew. That bible verse was taken out of context to fit mormonism. Mormons twist the true theology of Christianity and the Holy Bible. Sounds like something the devil himself would do.

    Anyone that does not believe in the one and only God (Alpha and Omega of the Holy Bible) has a false God. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." (Isaiah 43:10) Anyone that does not believe that Jesus is God has a false God.

    Jesus will be the judge, and people will stand in front of him, and call him "Lord" but he will say "I do not know you." I would not want to be one of those people.

    How can such a person who makes such a statement even be considered God inspired?? Sounds more devil inspired to me..

    "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409

  • Jeremy July 20, 2012 at 7:54 PM

    Sean, as always you are articulate, gracious, and anyone who doesn't recognize the "FACTS" that you point out are ignorant of Mere Christianity. Since when is pointing out differences condemning?


    Jeremy

  • Darell Outhier July 20, 2012 at 8:27 PM

    Mitzi "In reference to the oracles of God that you keep going on, and on, and on about.. I feel as though Dee already answered your question in great detail...The truth has been revealed to you over and over in these posts...I am not trying to be offensive but is seems as though the devil has a clever way of sidetracking from and twisting the truth. However,In the end, truth, justice, and light will prevail over darkeness, and evil...Just remember that. "

    No offense taken, in the end the wheat and chaff will be separated as the plan and design has always been, and Satan is actually helping that process along.

    Dee expounded on many things pertaining to Hebrews 5, but skirted over and past my questions and facts that I pointed out. I responded to her to specify where she omitted my points that you have not addressed either. No further response from her.

    I asked, and maintain that we cannot know of Christ, or have the Spirit to give understanding of the Bible until we know, what are the "first principles" spoken of. I specifically inquired about the word "again", that Paul used , indicating that these principles were taught to them before. Yet we do not find these "first principles" taught to them before. Why is that? They are absolute essentials to know and apply, if Christians are to advance from the milk to the meat of gospel doctrine.

    Mitzi, I cannot have faith or confidence that you understand your own beliefs about Christ, let alone mine, if you do not know what "The First Principles Of The Oracles of God" are, and where the Bible specifies what they are. If the Hebrews could not know and understand Christ without them, neither can any of us.

  • Darell Outhier July 21, 2012 at 12:56 AM

    Mitzi asks:" How do you know 100% that Jospeh Smith was a true prophet of God, and was not a decieving man, led by the devil? There is no evidence that anything in the BOM ever existed."

    I know by the only Means that anyone could know. Prayer. There is no physical evidence or proof for things that are spiritual. If physical evidence were abundant, then people would be compelled to believe, which will not convert the heart. That combination of receiving proof, and not being prepared to live that truth, would be disastrous. For a wise purpose, we learn by faith. God never compels us to believe.

    I first read the Book of Mormon, cover to cover, as a Missionary in Argentina. My discussion guide instructed me to testify to my investigators that I have read and prayed about this book, and that I have received an answer from God. And that they would too!
    I had never read the book, only familiar with many teachings, several memorized verses, and stories as I grew up. So, I could not go on teaching the discussions with integrity until I did so. I spent 2 weeks reading (slow reader, I analyze as I go) and when I closed the book, I knelt down and prayed, and waited, ..... and prayed and waited some more. Nothing!
    Perplexed, I thought of going home. There was much anguish and soul searching, but I decided to start reading the book again. As I read anew, it seemed like a different book. The teachings and truths in those chapters became so clear and meaningful, that filled my heart with light and peace, the kind of peace that cannot be duplicated by evil. My heart experienced that burning, of which the disciples on the road to Emmaus described (the burning that you said would "creep you out"), as they were taught by the Spirit and had the scriptures opened up to them.

    That is how I know (100%) that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. And the understandings have increased line upon line, not as a result of study and proof searching, but only after learning obedience to the truths I learn. That is the grand secret to learning God's truth. He will never tell us anything that our hardened hearts will not accept, and if we are not obedient to a principle, we have not accepted it. The same truth that saves us will also condemn us if we reject it. Therefore, God only give us line upon line, and precept upon precept, as our hearts are softened and the refiner's fire has humbled us. (And since I recognize much refinement still needed, I realize there is much truth yet to be learned. So we continue in faith.)
    Thanks for asking.

  • kathy f July 21, 2012 at 6:25 AM

    I love this whole discussion. I am a simple mind so I want to state what I believe- Mormonism is not different from other non Christian religions-just because they have CHRIST in their name does not make them Christian.
    BIBLE in the one and only, we can't add or subtract from it, it will never change. The book of Mormon changes when the Bishops think it needs to be changed.
    There is one God with 3 parts to Him ( like is am a daughter, mom and wife-not 3 people
    We need to strive to be more like God, I don't think I will ever be like Him and because of Grace I will still reach Heaven (not my own heaven)
    The LDS church does not tell all to its members-doesn't that make you suspicious?

    I love many aspects of the LDS culture-the focus on importance of family and their kindness

    MORMONISM thou will not get you to heaven
    With that said I still love Mormons, Jews, Muslims and so on and so forth...would I challenge any of them about their faith-yes, do I fear them-no....

    The sadness I have with the LDS church is the ignorance of so many of their followers- most have NO clue about the BIBLE only the book of Mormon, so many don't know about the belief of becoming a God of your own planet, they are blinded by the OUTSIDE appearance of their church.
    My dad was raised in the LDS Church and died with his name in their "book"-he became a Chrisrian and was able to use his knowledge of the LDS church so witness to many missionaries who came to our door over the years....

    I hope a LDS missionary comes to my door one day, because I want to be like my dad........I welcome the challenge and the conversation!

  • Mitzi July 21, 2012 at 7:38 AM

    Darell,

    Are you a bishop now? I truly feel sad for you. Maybe you should READ THE HOLY BIBLE, get down on your knees, and pray about what you have read in the bible.... Read carefully, and especially analyze the book of John. Read the book of John more than once if you have to. I will pray that your eyes will be open so you can come to find who the real God is. Also, pray that if you do have any spirits of deception over you, that they be REMOVED in the name of Jesus Christ.. Lucifer is an angel of most brilliant light & Father of lies. Lucifer's job is to make people feel as though lies are truths. I believe he has accomplished this with the LDS church... However, thank the Lord, many people are coming out of it's bondage to find the real Jesus Christ. It is a feeling a peace that I hope you will someday find.

    If the bible is true, then mormon doctrines can't be true, or vice versa....There is only ONE truth. I will stick to more than just blind faith, and feelings, I will stick to evidence and use my MIND (and common sense) as well... That burning feeling in the bosom, after praying if the BOM is real, is not the Holy spirit, I can assure you of that.

    I challenge you to check out this website:
    http://hotm.tv/

  • John July 21, 2012 at 8:22 AM

    Darell,

    So, you say the splinter groups that practice polygamy are apostate groups...Well than what message does that send about Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young? They practiced and promoted polygamy and they are the main prophets of the LDS religion......The mainstream LDS church can change the fact that they don't currently practice polygamy, but they can't change their foundation...What does this say about mormonism?

    "If any of you will DENY THE PLURALITY OF WIVES and continue to do so, I promise that YOU WILL BE DAMNED." ~ Brigham Young, Deseret News, November 14, 1855

    “The ONLY MEN WHO BECOME GODS, even the Sons of God, are those WHO ENTER INTO POLYGAMY.” ~ Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269

    -Jospeh Smith had 33 wives.

  • Darell Outhier July 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM

    Mitzi, I take it that you do not have a biblical answer for my biblical question. So be it. I am perplexed at how you can say: "... many people are coming out of it's bondage to find the real Jesus Christ ..." when nobody can find Jesus Christ, as Paul illustrated to the Hebrews, without the answer that you will not give me.

    Thank you for your expressed concern, I do not doubt that it comes from your heart.

    John, .... sorry I cannot get involved at this time on that subject.

    Blessings to all.

  • Mitzi July 21, 2012 at 1:14 PM

    Darell,

    The oracles of God are His revelation to mankind through the HOLY BIBLE, and are, given by inspiration of God, and [are] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.(I Timothy 3:16-17)

    The oracles of God are simply the Scriptures, not the law of Moses only, but all the writings of the Old Testament, which were given by the respiration of God, and are authoritative and infallible; and by the "first principles" of them are intended, either the first promises in them, concerning the Messiah; or the institutions, rites, and ceremonies of the law, which are sometimes called elements, (Galatians 4:3) where the same word is used as here; and which were the alphabet and rudiments of the Gospel to the Jews: or else the apostle designs the plain doctrines of the Gospel, which were at first preached unto them, in which they needed to be again instructed, as they were at first; so that instead of going forward, they had rather gone back.

    The writer of Hebrews scolds his audience for being "dull of hearing" (verse 11). Using an analogy of milk, the nourishment of children, against "strong meat" (KJV), the fare of those "who are of full age," he laments that he needs to "go back to the basics," the first principles of God's revelation. Not using that revelation to exercise their senses "to discern both good and evil" (verse 14), they had failed to grow up.

    Paul considered the Old Testament Scriptures to be not impressions various writers had about God, nor simply an account quoting God. Rather, the Scriptures were the oracles of God—they were His speech!

    No Christian or Christian leader speaks as the oracle of God when he speaks any words other than that of the Holy Bible. We are not infallible in our doctrine or teaching. When you are born again your body becomes the temple of God because the Holy Spirit indwells you – you are the dwelling place of God – you are the living oracle of God. THe Holy Bible is the written oracle of God. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God.” – (I Pet.3:11). The Word of God is distinguished from all other words by the word ‘oracle.’ Jesus Christ was the oracle of God. God spoke through him.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ walked on this earth, He was the Son of God, God in human flesh and He was the living oracles of God – He was the mouthpiece of God. He was the word made flesh and dwelt among us. “…and his name is called the Word of God” – (Rev.19:13). Every word He spoke was as the oracle of God. And when the prophets spoke the words of God recorded in the Bible, they were speaking as the oracles of God also. And if you’re born again of the Holy Spirit, and speak the Holy Bible,you are the living oracles of God. As it is written – “if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” – (I Pet.3:11).

  • R.J.H July 21, 2012 at 1:32 PM

    LDS People,

    No where in the Bible does it say to read it and pray about it, asking if it's true. It doesn't need that, it stands on its own. Also, faith is not blind. All of the places in the Bible are stil here today. We can look on a map and see them, we can even go there! Much of the culture still exists and those cultures that aren't around anymore, there is archeological evidence of them! Coins, houses,weapons ect. The Romans even speak of Jesus in their ancient texts and they were not so fond of Him. The dead sea scrolls have been found. These have validated much of the Bible. In Isaiah 44:6-8 (one of the books found in the dead sea scrolls) it says:

    6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
    8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    We can compare the modern day Bible side by side with the dead sea scrolls. Looking specifically at Isiah we see that the dead sea scroll writings and that of the modern day Bible are virtually identical. However, Joseph Smith's translation of Isaiah was very very different.

    What God says right here in Isaiah smacks mormon beliefs right in the face. Mormon doctorine goes against God's true and living Word. As we know, going agaisnt the Word is going against God because God IS THE WORD. The LDS teachings are a lie. Mormons cannot say this is translated wrong, because there is solid 100% proof that it is not translated wrong. Open your eyes, don't be blind anymore. God doesn't hide the truth!

    Truth is not afraid or offended of being challenged and will always prevail.

  • Mitzi July 21, 2012 at 1:38 PM

    Darell,

    What is the meaning of the "Oracles of God" to you? You demand answers and have not yet supplied your view, so I am so very interested as to your feeling on this subject matter..You seem to not know yourself that is why you kept asking over and over.. I assure you that I do know the one and only God, Jesus Christ himself.

  • Kathy f July 21, 2012 at 7:29 PM

    Darryl
    You bring up a subject and now can't get involved I the subject John addressed--why?

  • Darell Outhier July 22, 2012 at 1:58 AM

    Kathy,
    I did not bring it up, Mitzi did. And it was a tangent subject that deviated from the point at hand. My comment was but a quick response to close that tangent. If you have noticed, there are not too many LDS people here helping me out, and I am sort of spread thin. I do have another life.

    BTW, 1 r and no y in my name. My other brother spells it as you did, however. (age test in progress)

  • Darell Outhier July 22, 2012 at 2:40 AM

    Mitzi,
    Interesting read in your last post. Was that your writing, or were you sharing that from another source? I agree with the meaning of "oracles". The sacred things of God, His Word, His gospel, His prophets who receive and proclaim His Word. It is the "first principles" of which I am concerned. They were taught as such before this "scolding" by Paul and I would like to see those teachings. Either the Bible is missing scripture, or these teachings of the "first principles" never made into scripture, which makes scripture incomplete. I would think that these first principles were taught to all of the Saints, not just the Hebrews.
    The explaination you gave is extra biblical, so it is the opinion of whoever wrote it. Yet I do agree with some of that definition.

    Am I off base in believing that a person cannot know of Christ until he knows, and with integrity applies these first principles? That is the message I get from Hebrews 5.

    The first principles, as I see it, were reviewed by Paul in Chapter 6. He reminds them of REPENTANCE (by genuine works, not dead works), FAITH IN GOD, BAPTISM, LAYING ON OF HANDS, RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD and ETERNAL JUDGEMENT. And these principles, when correctly applied, will lead us to perfection.

    I shared how these principles bring understanding earlier on.

    Reposting: "Now, in my faith, the puzzle pieces are not put in place by the individual, except for the first five. They are obvious shapes and we know where they go. There are four corners and one round circle. Putting them in place is to live the principles they teach. Without living them, we will never see the picture, only the scattered pieces. The round circle piece is Jesus Christ, and that is the center of our lives and the picture. The four corners are Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance which Jesus made possible, Baptism as a covenant to obey and follow Jesus, and Receiving the Holy Spirit (by the laying on of hands), which Jesus sends to those who apply the other three corners.

    The rest of the puzzle pieces (the meat of the gospel) will be shown where and how they are to be placed by the Holy Spirit, one at a time, and on God's time table, not on our agenda or by earning any theological degrees. Or as scripture describes, line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. THAT is how and when the leaves and branches I mentioned above will fall into place.


  • Mitzi July 22, 2012 at 12:08 PM

    Darell,

    Yes, it is all biblical. That is all I can go off of. A person can't throw man made doctrine (teaching of Jospeh Smith and the D&C) in with bible scripture. That is like taking a bunch of cut glass, and adding a couple of diamonds to it, and calling it all diamonds!!

    As a new Christian, one can't start out eating meat,for they could not digest it. They must comprehend the basics, or the fundamentals of the gospel, just as an infant starts out with milk, because they can't yet digest solids. However, the infant will eventually need solids, or else it will not grow, and will eventually die. Solid foods are made for the more spiritually mature. The more one studies the word of God (Holy Bible), starts learning about the nature of God, and obeys God's commandments, the more they will grow spiritually. A good starting point is faith and repentance of sins ..

    I see the first principals of God as the basics/fundamentals of his word.The word of God is truth,it never changes, can't lie, and always keeps its promises. The old testament spoke of the coming Messiah, Jesus, and it did not fail to deliver its promise. “I the LORD do not change” (Malachi 3:6). "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

    A foundation is laid so that it can be built upon. A foundation cannot be laid unless it is on the teachings of Jesus Christ. A foundation is a prepared base on which structure rests. It is the beginnings or first principals of a system of truth. A person who comes to the Lord Jesus Christ, and hears and does what he says, builds a foundation on a rock (Jesus) If a person does not have a strong foundation in God's word (built upon the rock) they can be easily decieved or swayed. Paul's ministry was as a master builder of foundations. He was responsible for building foundations of those who had never heard of Christ, and teaching them so they could perceive and understand the signs, wonders and power of the Spirit of God through the gospel of Christ.

  • Mitzi July 22, 2012 at 12:09 PM

    CONTINUED....

    In Hebrews, Paul had to emphasize the word "again" because his audience didn't understand the basics the first time around. They were spiritually immature. They didn't seem to have grasped what they have already heard, what they have already read, and so they are not able to fully appreciate this deeper, profounder, more complex teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ. There are six basic teachings that he says they had already ought to have grasped the truth about .. Paul is saying, “Look, it’s not going to do me any good to go back to those basics that you still don’t understand." They were dull of hearing the basics, and did not grasp them.... At that point, they should have been eating solid foods(spiritually grown adults) but they were still drinking milk (immature babes) They were lacking in their growth.

    Paul charges them with being lazy listeners, they are not putting forth the effort to meditate and apply what is taught them. They are, at best, merely accepting. That they are not using what they hear is proof enough for Paul to understand that they are not thinking through the seriousness or the practical applications of the teachings. In other words, they are not assimilating what they hear, and the result is a lack of faith and a consequent faithlessness.

    The first principals of God has nothing to do with something in the scripture that was left out or incomplete...That is like saying that God made an oopsy and forgot to put something in his word. NO, this is not so. His word is complete. Heavens and earth shall pass away but his word shall not. It is the FULL gospel. No other gospel was needed. Jesus died on the cross and said. "It is finished."

    Paul spoke: I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! (Galations 1:6-9)

    For the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them- Jesus (Matthew 13:15)

  • Mitzi July 22, 2012 at 12:16 PM

    When mormons come out of the bondage of religion, they state that it is literally as if SCALES fall off their eyes. I pray for your scales to fall off and that you can see the one truth, and come to know the real Jesus Christ, of the Holy Bible, whom is the one and only God :)

  • Darell Outhier July 23, 2012 at 9:49 AM

    Mitzi,
    Everyone is adiment about declaring we preach a different gospel. Have you ever studied and traced the history of Christianity? Why did Martin Luther nail multiple protests on that door? Just the atrocities alone that are documented, in the name Christ , confirm to us that the church was void of the Spirit of God. The gospel was changed way back then. Good men tried to put it back together the best they knew how, and did an admirable job considering what they had to work with. They "reformed," but could not "restore."

    More later, time is sparse next few days.

  • Peter July 23, 2012 at 6:50 PM

    Just as Tiffanie said towards the top of the page, I think you misunderstand many, if not most, of those passages you quoted above. I wish to comment on one of the things mentioned.

    In your section "There is no original sin" you say that according to what Joseph Smith wrote in the articles of faith there should be no reason for Christ to die. Not the case. Because of Adam's fall all men because mortal and will die. We became a 'fallen' people, meaning we can sin. If we were to die in these sins, without Christ's atonement, then we would not be able to return to the presence of God. As the Bible teaches "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god" (1 corinthians 6:9) but it is human to sin. Jesus the Christ came to earth to make it possible to remove the punishment of the fall (bringing immortality) AND allow a way to be forgiven of sins (bringing eternal life). Christ's atonement removed the death brought by the fall of adam. That is given to everyone. What <a href="http://josephsmithpapers.org/">Joseph Smith</a> teaches in the Article of Faith is that if we want eternal life, to live with God (different from immortality, to live forever) we must repent of our own sins. We do not need to repent for Adam's Fall because the death of Christ has taken care of that. We need to repent for our own sins.

  • Darell Outhier July 23, 2012 at 9:38 PM

    Mitzi said: "A foundation is laid so that it can be built upon. A foundation cannot be laid unless it is on the teachings of Jesus Christ. A foundation is a prepared base on which structure rests. It is the beginnings or first principals of a system of truth. ...."

    Did not Jesus Christ establish a Church with a foundation? Were not the apostles and prophets given to unite and to perfect the saints, and to teach them the "first principles"?
    Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    20 And are built upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief ccorner stone;

    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    When did God tell us that the Church no longer needed His oracles? Not when man decided that the bible was all we needed, because man was perfectly capable of understanding spiritual things by himself without God's oracles. But when did God make this monumental change? And since God will do nothing without revealing His will to His servants, the prophets (Amos 3:7), which prophet received this instruction from God? Is not God is the same today, yesterday, and forever?

  • Mitzi July 24, 2012 at 4:52 PM

    Darell,

    Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church...He didn't start a religion,he came to abolish religion!! The church isn't about a building or a religion. It is the body of saved believers that follow him. True CHRISTIANITY differs from all ORGANIZED religions! It isn't a religion, it is the following and obeying of JESUS CHRIST. Jesus has no religion as that's a man made thing. Religion binds people but Jesus sets people free.. The foundation of Christianity is solely JESUS CHRIST and having a RELATIONSHIP with him. Everything that is organized has rules and rituals installed by a MAN- Most organized religions are founded due to some dead prophet (or false prophet) My God,Jesus Christ is alive! All true Christians go off the theology of the Bible and the bible alone..Therefore, they all believe JESUS IS GOD! If anything contradicts, or deviates from God's word, it is not to be trusted.

    The oracles of God is his living word, the Holy Bible. God did not need Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or all these other so called prophets to be a mouthpiece for God, and start anything new, or preach another gospel. God is in control, and his word,the Holy Bible, is the complete and full gospel. The Book of Mormon is no more real than Harry Potter! The LDS religion is so wrong on so many levels. It is a false gospel,and Mormons are eating off the same tree that Adam and Eve ate off, a tree of lies, not truth. They have fallen for a trick of the devil.

    If God is the same today, yesterday, and forever then what he said in the holy bible can't be constantly contradicting and changing. Yes, Darell you are right, God is the same, today, yesterday and forever..Therefore, when he says there are no other Gods before, or after him, and he knows of not any other Gods, that is what he means..You can't twist that or explain that away... God would not change his mind a million times from one record to the other. He can't lie....The bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price all contradict one another. There can be only one true book. So, pick your book, and pick your God, because the God of Mormonism is not the God of the Holy Bible.

    Falling for another Gospel, and worshiping a false God (idols) is a sin that carries very severe consequences. Repent now before it is too late. If you are indeed wrong, and Joseph Smith was a false prophet, a hellish lake awaits him, and all his followers. If I am wrong, I still make it to heaven anyway....Sounds like a win win for me and sounds like you better hurry up and figure out the truth! I have said it before and will say it again..Ignorance won't be bliss forever.

  • Darell Outhier July 24, 2012 at 7:08 PM

    So Mitzi, when I ask: "Did not Jesus Christ establish a Church with a foundation? Were not the apostles and prophets given to unite and to perfect the saints, and to teach them the "first principles"? .... your answer was no? There are 114 references to "church" in the New Testament, most referring to the organization that Jesus established and left in the care of His apostles. Were not apostles called and ordained to replace vacancies for Judas and at least one other? Did not the apostle declare to the Ephesians that we are "... built upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;?"

    You say: " Everyth ing that is organized has rules and rituals installed by a MAN ...." Are you suggesting that God's commandments are not under the category of rules? Or that baptism would not be a ritual?

    I see nothing but avoidance again to simple facts I present, garnished by old and molding accusations of how Mormons worship a false god, framed by a false prophet. Amos declared: " Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Is this the same God you worship today? Is God doing anything among men today? Where is His prophet?

    Avoidance, ..... you said Mormons preach another gospel, contrary to warnings in the bible. I told you that gospel was changed centuries ago, with the proof that Martin Luther nailed several letters of protest declaring the corruption of the gospel in the Christian church. That is the history trail of your faith, and the source of authority for man to represent Jesus Christ that Jesus Himself established as part of His Church. If Martin Luther was right (and he was) that the gospel was corrupted, as well as the priests and popes that were in charge, then there was indeed an apostasy. Now you judge the Restored Gospel by the standards and creeds that were inherited from a corrupt source (which Martin Luther declared).

    Am I following the wrong history of your faith?

  • Mitzi July 24, 2012 at 10:10 PM

    Darell,

    "For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid down, which is Jesus Christ."
    (1 Corinthians 3:11)

    There are no authoritative apostles after the death of the Biblical ones. The Biblical ones continue to serve foundationally through their inspired teachings. Just as Christ continues to be the cornerstone, and Head of the church, though not bodily present, His apostles and prophets continue to be Christs authoritative teachers. Evangelists, pastors, and teachers who are true to Christ have no message but that which has been once for all delivered to the saints.Those who are claiming new revelations, new power, new authority, and are claiming apostolic status are false. They are leading us farther from the unity of the faith, not closer to it.

    We can see even within the New Testament itself that apostolic teachings were considered final and authoritative. Jude is a good example. He wrote, Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints(Jude 1:3). After describing the practices and teachings of false teachers, Jude returns to this theme: But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:17).

    The teachings of the apostles are considered authoritative and having been given once for all. Likewise Paul's writings are called Scripture even in the New Testament: And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15,16)

    Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus. (Hebrews 3:1) In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son,Jesus.(Hebrews1:1-2) The veil was ripped so why would you need men that are so-called Apostles, Priests, and Prophets when the quintessential one is Jesus, who is perfect, sinless, and we can talk to to him daily...“religions” are simply man-made attempts to define God. We can't define something that created us...

  • Ivy July 24, 2012 at 10:25 PM

    This is just making me sick. You have to be spiritually blind not to see the falsehood of mormonism. The gross polygamy of the "prophets." Marrying innocent teenage girls and other men's wives. It's just awful. Also, the notion that you could ever become a God, be an equal to our creator is just blasphemy. Read the Bible. As R.J.H stated above...
    Isaiah 44:6-8 says:

    6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
    8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    That alone should disproove the mormon religion. Why doesn't it? Because they have been taught that the Bible is unreliable. That is a complete lie. Look at the facts! Jesus would call you hypocrites just like He did of the religous men of His time. I wish that you guys would see the truth and the light. When you get to heaven you won't be able to tell our Lord God that you didn't hear the truth. It's all around you.
    God said His word would last past heaven and earth. See, we don't follow man. We follow Jesus. See you mormons are saying that we are following a corrupted church. How could this be possible if use the bible only? God said it would last beyond heaven and earth. I know atleast one of the reasons that Martin Luther broke off from the catholic church was because the catholics were charging people money, saying that their family wouldn't enter into heaven if they didn't. That's awful! Even today many catholics pray to mary or "ask her to pray for them." That's not right either. I am not and neither has anyone here been saying that mormonism is the only wrong relgion. There are many people who do not follow what the bible says. No matter who does these things, it's wrong. I read the Bible, I take every word as truth and I follow my Lord Jesus. I surrendered my life to Him. I love Jesus more than I can express and His love for me is endless. I think about Jesus all the time because he has my heart.
    Pleasle people learn your own church history before you call joseph smith a prophet. A man who goes against God's word is not a prophet.

    I'm sorry for my rant, I'm just very frustrated. I'm tired of hearing mormons say they are christian and say that the body of Christ is in the same ring as satan.

  • Darell Outhier July 25, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    Mitzi: "There are no authoritative apostles after the death of the Biblical ones. The Biblical ones continue to serve foundationally through their inspired teachings......"

    Yes, that is what is true in today's Christianity, and the results speak for itself. Corruption dominated the church and caused good men like Martin Luther to expose the many changes in the gospel that occurred, and then to divide from the church. And still without apostles, the unity of the faith fails to be fulfilled, as was the original divine purpose of the Church that Jesus established, because the foundation of apostles to perfect the saints, as spoken in Ephesians, is required to lead the people of God to this otherwise impossible end.

  • Mitzi July 25, 2012 at 10:13 PM

    I want documentation, and support, about the many "changes" in the gospel that occured. I can find you documentation on the approx 4,000 changes, that the Book of Mormon has undergone, since it was first written. Something that has to be changed, that many times, can't be from a God that is the same today, yesterday, and forever....I mean come on, according to the earlier published Book of Mormon,blacks used to be cursed, and bad! Now, because some other prophet changed their mind, this is no longer so??.. God never discriminate on race...

  • Darell Outhier July 25, 2012 at 10:55 PM

    Are you are saying Martin Luther had no right or any justification in doing what he did, because you don't have documentation and support?

    There was an apostasy, no doubt about it. If you do not think ours is a valid restoration by Jesus Christ, that is your choice. But you should be looking for a restoration that is valid and by divine means. Or submit yourself to the authority of the Pope.

  • Mitzi July 26, 2012 at 2:31 AM

    The New testament was collected by the Christian Antioch disciples. There is no proof that the Catholic church interpreted the new testament. It was the Alexandria manuscripts, which were translated from a different man, and then used by the Roman Catholic Church. It was their own book that added in Apocrypha books. However, that is different from, and NOT, the New King James Bible. Christians translated the King James version, not the Catholics!! King James ordered the Bible be translated from the original Antioch version. God preserved his word exactly how he wanted it!

    The books that were not included in the bible were considered Apocrypha books, and supported such things as:
    • Prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45)
    • Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7)
    • Intercession of saints in heaven (2 Maccabees 15:14)
    • Intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12-15)
    -These were all considered gnostic writings and not God breathed....

    Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible:
    Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language which was used in the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
    None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
    The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament, whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

    The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God only as books of some historical value . the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement: "Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read."

    By 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James said this about the Apocrypha: "As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."

  • Mitzi July 26, 2012 at 2:32 AM

    Why Born Again Christians Don't Use the Apocrypha

    A controversial issue is that born again Christians do not use the Apocrypha and are being accused of taking away from the Word of God. However, the Apocrypha is nothing more than adding to the already inspired Word of God. So why is it not included in Scripture? Here are the reasons:

    1.) Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever quoted from the Apocrypha. Nothing else was directly sourced to it with "it is written". The very references of Jesus were from Abel up to Zechariah proving much of the Old Testament was being quoted but NEVER the Apocrypha. Jesus' references were usually the prophetic books and the Psalms.

    2.) It was rejected by the Jewish scholars for this reason- it was written during the 400 years of silence before the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ as God becoming man. It was written after the writing of Malachi and God did not have any revelation or apparition during that time. The signs and wonders only returned during the apostolic era and God ceased to send them after the end of the apostolic era. Some historians suggests that the Pharisees

    3.) The Apocrypha is filled with errors. Here are just some:

    Condones the use of magic

    Tobit 6:5-7- "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."

    Clearly, Raphael here is a FALLEN ANGEL.

  • Mitzi July 26, 2012 at 2:33 AM

    CONTINUED:

    It teaches salvation by alms with these verses as an example when the Bible is clear money cannot deliver the soul by any means (Psalm 49:7):

    * Tobit 4:11, "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness."
    * Tobit 12:9, "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."


    It also teaches the heresy of Purgatory which denies Hebrews 9:27:

    2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."

    Historical inaccuracy also proves the Apocrypha to be not Scriptural. According to the late Ptr. James Kennedy, the Bible is ever accurate with history. If certain books that they want to add into the Bible are not accurate with history then it's not Scripture:

    * Judith 1:5, "Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him."
    * Baruch 6:2, "And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace."


    Some facts to verify: Nebuchodonosor (another way of saying Nebuchadnezzar) is NOT the King of Assyria but of Babylon. Baruch 6:2 could not be written by Jeremiah's secretary because Jeremiah 25:11 was clear it would be seventy years not seven generations of exile.

    4.) Even Roman Catholicism during its course had a problem accepting it

    During the first four centuries of the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, even the scholars of Alexandria, Egypt had their problems whether or not the apocrypha should ever be counted as Scripture. Jerome one of the greatest saboteurs of Scripture and his corrupt Latin Vulgate (which however could not destroy the full message of the Bible because it was what Girolamo Savonarolla used to attack the papal corruptions and caused him to leave Catholicism for biblical Christianity) however rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.

    "As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine." -Jerome

    Others who rejected the Apocrypha were Origen, Eusebius, Cyril of Jerusalem and Athanasius. So the "infallible" Roman Catholic Church even has problems with its own doctrine throughout the centuries. Again Mark 7:8-13 comes to mind about putting man's tradition above God's Word.

  • Ivanhoe July 26, 2012 at 7:50 PM

    Darell Outhier July 25, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    Mitzi: "There are no authoritative apostles after the death of the Biblical ones. The Biblical ones continue to serve foundationally through their inspired teachings......"

    The best Apostle, Priest, and Apostle is Jesus, who we can talk to in Prayer everyday, whens the last time you spoke to Thomas Monson, Darrell ? I doubt he would take take the time to to speak to you except if you had a big fat tithe check.

    Hebrews 3
    1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

  • Mitzi July 26, 2012 at 8:35 PM

    Ivanhoe...AMEN TO THAT!

  • Darell Outhier July 26, 2012 at 11:21 PM

    Yes, IH, Jesus is the best of anything and everything. He is the One who established His Church with apostles and prophets. Do you second guess His purpose and wisdom in doing so? No one has (or had) the right or authority to substitute those oracles by any means, especially to lead and to teach Christian converts the gospel. Scripture does not give that authority to anyone. Man's capacity to understand scripture is limited, to some more than others. We see perfectly that Biblical interpretation differs (listening to different spirits revisited) among so called leaders or scholars who somehow usurped the authority to "shepherd" the people. (Many have done great things by dedicated service with selflessness through following the example of Christ found in scripture.) To be called of God to serve in that capacity means that God is doing something, and as scripture teaches us in Amos, God does nothing without revelation to his prophets.

    Your comment about President Monson reveals your ignorance about our faith and how priesthood authority is set up. And the insinuation that money has selfish significance ices the cake.

  • Darell Outhier July 26, 2012 at 11:29 PM

    Mitzi, please make a long story short. Was the Catholic Church the Church that Jesus established?

  • Mitzi July 27, 2012 at 5:27 AM

    Darell,

    I would like to know where Mormons get that Jesus established the Catholic Church? Is this what you guys learn about in church... How to attack the bible/ Christian beliefs and how to make it look as though the bible came from "The whore of Babylon." That is a quote from a Mormon leader in reference to the Catholic church, so wouldn't this be equivalent to degrading Jesus, when you say that Jesus established the Catholic church?

    The first church wasn't even a religion.... The formation of the the church age did not begin until Acts with the coming of the Holy Spirit, when He began to indwelling all believers, forming the body of Christ—the church—by baptizing all believers into Christ ( Acts 1:5; 2; 10:44-48; 11:15-18; 1 Cor. 12:12-13). In Acts 11:15, Peter equates the Lord’s promise of Acts 1:5 with the coming of the Spirit in Acts 2. Further, 1 Corinthians 12:13 shows us that the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit is that which joins us into the body of Christ, the church. It is at this point that the church began and consists of both Jew and Gentile in one new man. This was a truth that was unrevealed in the Old Testament (see Col. 1:25-29).It was the movement of the holy spirit in a church in Acts and then Paul continued to preach the gospel throughout the new testament...There was nothing Catholic about it! Do you read the bible even? Or do you just listen to what Mormons say about the Bible??

    Acts is a transitional book moving from the Old Testament economy into that of the church age, the body of Christ. However, Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises—at least those that dealt with His first advent. With His death, Christ brought an end to the Old Testament covenant as seen in the tabernacle/temple, the sacrifices, and the Aaronic priesthood. It was for this reason that the veil of the temple was torn in two (Matt. 27:51). Hebrews gives further witness to this fact as did the institution of the Lord’s supper when He also observed what was in reality the last legitimate Passover because that very evening He would be arrested and die the next day as our Passover Lamb Himself (1 Cor. 5:7).

    Acts records the beginning of the church as the body of Christ. The gospels also contain much information that is pertinent to the church as the body of Christ as with John 13-17. The Catholic church was NOT instituted by Jesus. It's another man made organized religion. The Catholic church did not translate the bible. The Antioch CHRISTIAN Disciples gathered the records and they they were carefully translated under the supervision of King James...

  • Mitzi July 27, 2012 at 5:28 AM

    Continued:

    A controversial issue is that born again Christians do not use the Apocrypha and are being accused of taking away from the Word of God. However, the Apocrypha is nothing more than adding to the already inspired Word of God...MY long story short, is that man has tried to corrupt God's word, but has failed. The bible comes straight from the mind, not of a man, but the mind of God. It is GOD BREATHED. There is nothing flawed or corrupted about it. Out of all the wonderful things God has created, and all his majesty, I am 100% confident that he can hold his living word together as he intends to do so. Nothing will be able to change or corrupt the Word of God!

    Mormons either need to start giving the bible 100% credit, and use it ALL, AS IT IS, or just stop using it all together. I always hear Mormons running down the bible, and no wonder why they would say it can only be trusted, as far as being translated correctly, because the fact of the matter is, a lot of the bible contradicts Mormon doctrine, and teachings. Well Darell, let me tell you why it does so....The holy bible is the ONE truth and it is the ONLY correct book! There is only one God, and the Holy Bible is his living word, and the one and ONLY truth. Everything else is a false gospel, man made, and takes the eyes off of Jesus!!!! Like I said,pick your book, and pick your God..The God of Mormonism is not the same God as the God of the Holy Bible.

    The LDS Church News reported: "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'"

    (June 20, 1998, <http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bi/libstory_church?dn98&9806210091>).

  • Ivanhoe July 27, 2012 at 5:15 PM

    Darell Outhier July 26, 2012 at 11:21 PM

    Your comment about President Monson reveals your ignorance about our faith and how priesthood authority is set up. And the insinuation that money has selfish significance ices the cake.
    ----------
    In 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the range of $60 to $80 thousand a year for living expenses, excluding benefits. This does not include any money received by business ventures or sitting on the board of directors for other companies. Most all General Authorities of the LDS Church are wealthy businessmen; most have companies whose income exceeds a million dollars a year. Most General Authorities have bank account balances in the six digit figure. In addition to the modest salary, the Prophet and his Apostles are given living arrangments. Thomas S. Monson lives in a 24000+ square foot condo estimated at a value of $2.8 million. The Prophet and his Apostles all have 24hr limo service provided by private drivers. The Prophet has 24hr "secret service" bodyguards who protect him anywhere he goes.

    Quinn's book Extensions of Power does have more current numbers that also delineate by rank. The Prophet makes the most, his two counselors slightly less, and the remaining twelve lesser still. What Quinn also points out though, is that until earlier in the 20th century local bishops and stake presidents were in fact paid from a percentage of the tithing funds collected.

    When the Mormon Prophet David O'McKay died in 1970 he had an estate worth an estimated at half a million dollars. David was a lifetime church employee (64 years) and accumulated this wealth from the LDS Church.

    General Authority figures in Mormonism are treated as heros and celebrities. General Authorities expect obedience and reverence around them and command enormous power over the members. If a General Authority walked into a Mormon chapel and demanded everyone get on their hands and knees, not a single person would be standing.

  • Ivanhoe July 27, 2012 at 9:14 PM

    here's a story about Thomas Monson from Mormon Curtain-Example of pride and hypocrisy

    Monday, Jun 15, 2009, at 07:59 AM
    Tommy The Tyrant
    Original Author(s): ShocknAwe
    THOMAS S. MONSON - SECTION 1 -Guid- ↑



    Years ago, my sister worked for the church's insurance company, DMBA. The GA over them was Thomas S. Monson. She said she felt so guilty when he was put in as prophet, because she despised the guy, everyone at the office did because he was a tyrant. Then she told me about their annual office Christmas parties.

    The office party consisted of serving really good food and listening to TSM give them all a talk. People, of course, didn't want to hear him and would grab the food and sneak out. Then they banned people from leaving. One year they even put church guards in front of the exits to keep people from leaving their own Christmas party!!

    Can you imagine any other business in the free world posting guards to keep people in their own party? Anyone else have fun times with Tommy?

  • Darell Outhier August 2, 2012 at 1:04 AM

    Darell Outhier July 26, ...Mitzi, please make a long story short. Was the Catholic Church the Church that Jesus established?

    Mitzi July 27, ...Darell, I would like to know where Mormons get that Jesus established the Catholic Church?

    Evasive response Mitzi. LDS do not "get" that Jesus established the Catholic Church. The apostasy occured between the death of the original apostles and the formation of the Roman Church. Christianity today is an offshoot from the Catholic Church. The beliefs and interpretation of scripture largely comes from the spirit (of man) that ruled in the church during those dark ages. The reformation came and tried dilligently to make corrections. Your beliefs stem from that attempt. But the true Spirit and authority of Christ's Church was long gone, because of the prophesized apostasy.

    Or can you correct me by tracing the events and leadership, the ordained ministers of Christ's Church since it was first established, and somehow survived during the domination of popes and Roman government?

  • Mitzi August 2, 2012 at 11:53 AM

    Darell,

    I have had Mormons tell me that the bible was translated by the Catholic Church and can only be trusted as far as being translated correctly and that it could be flawed and corrupted by man in the translation process...

    I went into extreme detail in my previous post on all your questions. I am sorry if you can not understand the concept. I think it was pretty clear....Please re read.

    The Bible was written by humans, but inspired by God. God used people of different backgrounds & even different writing skills, but every single word in the Bible is exactly what God intended!

  • Darell Outhier August 2, 2012 at 9:24 PM

    Mitzi,
    I have explained in many ways something you have not responded to. Does that mean you agree with it, didn't have time to respond to it, or didn't read it at all? It is ultimately important.

    The Bible is imperfect because it is written in human languange, which is imperfect. How can something imperfect describe that which is perfect? The prophets wrote by inspiriation the things they saw and understood clearly, but were limited by that imperfect language.

    Scholarship can verify translation, but translation also requires interpretation, as many ambiguities are always abound with imperfect language. People always find "loopholes" in our tax laws, of course inspired by a spirit contrary to the spirit by which the tax laws are written. Uncle Sam wants our money, and we want to keep our money. Language provides the means to thwart Uncle Sam's intentions.

    If the scholars that translate the manuscripts of the Bible do not have the Spirit of God to assist in interpretation, they can be 100% correct in language translation, yet be 100% wrong in the interpretation, and cause the translation to reflect what they believe is the intended message. So "every single word in the Bible (may not be) exactly what God intended!"

    We do not beleive the Book of Mormon is perfect, and the introduction explains so. But those who approach God's Word with an eye single to His glory, and are humble enough to place their own will on the alter of sacrifice so that they will allow God to change their hearts (a process that requires the Refiner's fire of affliction), then the correct interpretation (and hence, translation) will be known to them. It is the things that are hidden from the natural man that cause mis-translation.

    Again, the obvious evidence of this is the multiple denominations of Christianity that have divided over differing beliefs (aka: interpretations). If they were one in Spirit (unity of faith as described in Ephesians, when gathered and welded together by apostles and prophets), they would understand the same things the same way, because the Spirit of understanding would be their common denominator. But this Spirit of understanding was long lost shortly after the death of the original apostles, no more common denominator. Man's wisdom and scholarship replaced that Spirit, and faith has become the arm of flesh.

    continued: ....

  • Darell Outhier August 2, 2012 at 9:25 PM

    Continued .....
    I owe a great deal to Walter Martin (the origina "Bible Answer Man"), an anti-Mormon author who called himself "Dr." and "Professor", and got one of his degrees from a diploma mill University. ** He caused me much soul searching with much of the rhetoric that has been posted on this article. He is an example of dis-unity of the body of Christ. He was ousted by one denomination as a pastor because of his divorce, but reinstated by another who didn't think that was an issue. WHO IS IN CHARGE? Man or God? Yet he went on teaching and influencing Christians on difficult Bible questions. Did he have the Spirit of understanding, or the scholarly understanding of man?

    **http://www.shields-research.org/Brown/Brown.htm (see volume 3)

  • Darell Outhier August 2, 2012 at 10:06 PM

    May I make an invitation to review some excellent videos (3 part series) by BYU on the making of the King James Bible? Here is their overview:
    If the martyrs who brought the King James Bible into existence could still talk to us today, they would most certainly tell the tales of international politics, intrigue, subversion, bloodshed, fire, and the runaway libido of King Henry VIII that were the backdrop of its creation. These stories, along with a modern, scholarly perspective of the 16th century book, are presented in BYUtv’s Fires of Faith: The Coming Forth of The King James Bible – a series of films which celebrate the 400th anniversary of one of the most enduring pieces of writing in the history of humanity.

    I see the corruption from the apostasy, and the diligence and devotion of wonderful Christian heroes to fight the corruption, and the sacrifices they made for us.

    http://byutv.org/show/123d4a82-3d47-488e-beda-2496a5a1ff2c

  • Ivanhoe August 3, 2012 at 11:41 PM

    POCKET DICTIONARY
    OF
    THEOLOGICAL TERMS By Stanley J. Grenz
    David Guretzki
    Cherith Fee Nordling



    creatio ex nihilo A Latin phrase that literally means “creation out of nothing.” Augustine is credited with developing the argument that God created the world without any preexisting materials. This was in contrast to most Greek philosophers, who understood the creative act as God’s ordering of eternally existing materials into the present world or universe. The value of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is that it maintains a clear distinction between God and the created order and also maintains that God alone has eternal status.

    Mormon say vegetables, animals, humans have eternal status and so follow Pagan and Greek thinking

  • Darell Outhier August 4, 2012 at 3:17 AM

    Pagan and Greeks can say something right without knowing the full significance of their philosophy. Heck, even you get some things correct occasionally! :)

    Why would St. Auggie have to develop an argument when that kind of understanding comes from the Spirit? You don't argue with the Spirit of God. Was he a prophet or an apostle, called of God? If so, then by whom? Who ordained him?

    Creatio ex nihilo is impossible if you are to maintain the Justice and non respecter of persons in the attributes of God. If everything was created by God out of nothing, then God alone is responsible for evil, and the characteristics of persons who meld with evil. How could a Loving and Compassionate God who is Just condemn persons to hell for His flaws?
    If we were created from nothing, then everything we are is the direct result of the creator. You cannot fault a person for becoming something that he had no say so in his creation. And it is impossible to build faith on such a creator.

  • Darell Outhier August 4, 2012 at 3:52 AM

    Ih quoted: "The value of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is that it maintains a clear distinction between God and the created order and also maintains that God alone has eternal status."

    Does scripture teach this, or is it derived by man's trying form a conclusion to force puzzle pieces together, because they don't know where else they could go?

    My personal understanding, which is very limited because of my personal weaknesses (but growing as I overcome them), is that God is and has always been eternally perfect. His creation of us is such that our imperfect nature can be refined, like removing the dross from the gold. Refinement is not a process that everyone will accept and/or endure to the end, because we have the free will to turn from it when the "heat" (or afflictions) gets more than we like. Some even choose not to begin the process. 1/3 of the "spirits" even chose to follow a looser, so they might be saved by a false plan, of which they were duly warned of, that suupposedly guaranteed their position. ...... The point of all this is that I will always understand and maintain a clear distinction of what God the Father, and His Son Jesus did for me, at such a Great Cost, that my sins may be washed clean as I follow God's plan of refinement, as I learn the meaning of true belief by overcoming the world, and discover true faith, even unto salvation.

    1 John 5:
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our F A I T H.

    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that B E L I E V E T H that Jesus is the Son of God?

  • Ivanhoe August 4, 2012 at 3:21 PM

    Romans 4:
    Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
    (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

    The Bible is very clear God calls things which did not exist, not out of existing matter

  • Darell Outhier August 4, 2012 at 5:36 PM

    That is taking a puzzle piece and pounding it into place with a hammer to make it fit into your beliefs. Major gaps and conflicting colors trying to match, besides the scuff marks from the hammer. Very clear? Very clear would be: 'God spoke and created everything from nothing.' Giving life to the dead? The dead pre-existed, if that is your application. Sounds more to me as if "Him who believed" had faith in us, the spiritually dead, that we might be taught faith in the Grace of His Son, and exist spiritually and become alive.

    How do you fit the pieces of the puzzle that tell us God is Just, and not a respecter of persons, as I described before? You or Mitzi never address that point.

  • Ivanhoe August 5, 2012 at 10:03 PM

    As a Mormon, accepting the gospel can be like trying to assemble an intricate jigsaw puzzle. An attractive picture with much attention to detail is glued to the surface. Because great numbers of small pieces are carved out of the whole, re-assembling them is difficult. Some of the pieces must be manipulated, others placed just-so, before the picture can begin to take form again. But piece or two pops out of position. It is so difficult that you let it lie and wait until to try and figure it out. It never occurs to you that, if you turn the puzzle over, there is another picture on the back - one you had not been aware of. If you decide to go through the agony of turning it all over section by section - sometimes piece by piece-you can now match colors and shapes. It is possible to use some of the pieces with beautiful picture; but it is alarming to find that you must use many of the pieces with dark, ugly. Symbolism. Strange unfamiliar images begin to emerge. It is devastating to find that the beautiful picture on the front was only a facade: in actuality, the puzzle only fits with both light and dark pieces. This is the over-whelming experence of a Mormon who discovers they have mixed truth with error and in so, have believed a lie.
    appendix 1 Understanding Mormonism Sandra and Conrad Sundholm

  • Mitzi August 5, 2012 at 10:41 PM

    Darell,

    Talk about hammering puzzle pieces to fit your beliefs and major gaps and conflicting colors trying to match?!!That is the most ironic thing I have EVER heard when you take into consideration all the contradictions between the Holy Bible, book of mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. You need to do some research....

    You say that as you understand, "God is and has always been eternally perfect." Do you know that the God that the Mormons believe in for "this planet" was once a man on another planet that WORKED his way to GODHOOD to be able to come to our planet to be our God? So how was he always eternally perfect if he was once a man? Is there an eternal top God over all these smaller Gods? This is polytheism to the max...This is a big no no- Idols and false worship of Gods. There is only but one God!

    Also, God created us but he is not responsible for evil .....The Devil, demons, sin, and free will can all be held responsible for evil....We live in a fallen broken world...The bible says we are all born with a sinful nature and free will. *Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    We are free corporal beings who have God-given abilities to choose right or wrong, good or bad... Our free-will is our ability to freely think, act, and choose. God gave us this ability in his design of human beings. For example, Lucifer lived with God until the day He sinned against Him. Not only did Lucifer sin, but he convinced many angels to sin against God too. How could Lucifer make a decision or act in a way that would change his life forever? Lucifer's actions derived from his God-given ability to think and act independently as a free-will being. Another good example of our free-will is when Eve lived in the Garden of Eden and acted on behalf of Lucifer to sin against God by eating of the forbidden fruit. She, too, demonstrated this God-given ability to think and act independently. The ability to know right from wrong is inherent and that is why we are free-will beings.. Having no free will means not having the option of choosing to do right or wrong .

    Rom 3:9-10...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Rom 5:19...For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners

    Rom 7:14...but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    We can't be proud or self righteous due to our own works. We are all sinners and fallen short of the Glory of God. We owe all the glory to Jesus.

    Satan is deceiving people into feeling as though they will all have a second chance to accept Jesus and get to heaven after death.....That is such a lie of Satan! The real Jesus Christ must be accepted here and now. He is the one and only way and this life is the one and only chance.

  • Darell Outhier August 6, 2012 at 12:15 PM

    Mitzi,
    I would be better served by your kind efforts if you would answer my questions about your faith, rather than to avoid my questions by telling me what is wrong with my faith. From my perspective, I would not expect you to understand my faith, especially if you do not understand your own. So please show me that you do!

    As I have said several times, you are taking pieces of our puzzle and condemning them because they do not compare or fit into the scheme, or beliefs, of your puzzle. Just as I would not expect to see your pieces fit into ours, which is why I am asking you how your apparent conflicting doctrines fit.

    And, as I said early on, in our faith, there are only 5 pieces of the puzzle we can put in place by ourselves (which are included in the first principles of the oracles of God, as we discussed). Only when those pieces are in there proper place (by applying them in our lives) will the Holy Spirit give us the answers as to where and how the other pieces fit. That is why you do not see the answers to your list above. I can not show you how they fit, but I can tell you that they do!

  • Mitzi August 6, 2012 at 3:34 PM

    Darell,

    If my puzzle pieces do not fit into yours, then the Mormon church needs to all together quit using the Holy Bible because that is my ENTIRE and COMPLETE puzzle.....

    Darell, you can neither show me, or explain how your pieces fit, but instead, just tell me that they do?? HMMM interesting...Remember God tells us to love him with all our MIND. There are several questions that I have asked you, and you completely avoid answering them,or change the subject to make it look as though I'm not answering you. I have answered every one of your questions in great detail...It seems as though you are manipulating things.

    I understand my faith, and the true gospel, very well, thank you very much! :) It is these man made, organized religions, that pervert and complicate it.... Why do the Mormons think it's O.K. to take scripture from the Holy Bible and chop it, twist it, complicate it, and pretty much make it unrecognizable? Worst of all, they take pieces of the bible to make up their own STORIES, then put these stories in their own books, which all contradict and deviate from God's word. This causes confusion from the truth. There is only one truth and it's so simple.. So why add all these other trip ups, and traps, that lead many down the wide path to a horrible place? The bible is not a man made story, it's God breathed-written by the holy spirit through man. The Bible has no flaws, contradictions, and is INFALLIBLE. Every single prophecy in the old testament has come true to a T!! A mere man could not create this! Also, we are in the midst of seeing new testament prophecies being fulfilled as I speak!
    *2 Timothy 3: 16-All Scripture is God Breathed and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

    Darell,I thank God the devil does not have my eyes blinded. Evidently, if you can't show me how or why your pieces fit, then it is YOU that does not understand your faith! Please refer back to Ivanhoe's comment about the puzzle. I think he hit that one on the head!

  • Ivanhoe August 6, 2012 at 8:12 PM

    The eighth lesson in the Joseph Smith manual for our course of study this year is entitled, "The Everlasting Priesthood." Of course, as we've had the restored gospel since the time of Joseph Smith, the Priesthood is familiar to us, but Joseph was revealing things to the early Saints that were beyond their normal parameters, and I can only imagine how they felt when the concept of the Priesthood was introduced to them.

    We are taught in this lesson that the Priesthood is everlasting and has been held by the prophet in charge of every dispensation in the world's history. The keys of the Priesthood are sent down to earth every time the gospel is sent, and it is by Adam's authority that the keys are delivered.

    The ordinances of the Priesthood as we have them today were established in the beginning by God, and they must be kept in the way He has established. They can't be used unless it is done in wisdom and order. We remember the story of Cain in the Book of Genesis. He did not administer his sacrifice in the way he had been commanded, and he was cursed for it. Those who seek to officiate in the ordinances of the Priesthood must do it properly, as has been revealed to us.

    God reveals Himself through the channel of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Knowledge, doctrine and every important matter revealed by heaven comes through the Melchizedek Priesthood. We can't attain perfection without the Priesthood-in order to become perfect, we must know the workings of God, and we can't do that without it being revealed to us, and we need the keys of the Priesthood in order to have that revelation. *Tristi's note: Women can have revelation too - this lesson is not meant to indicate that men are the only ones entitled to personal revelation. Women can also learn the deeper things of the Gospel.

    Having the Priesthood is not a right, it is a privilege, and all men should revere it and treat it as such, a tool to be used in doing our Heavenly Father's work on earth.

  • Darell Outhier August 9, 2012 at 10:47 AM

    Mitzi said: " Evidently, if you can't show me how or why your pieces fit, then it is YOU that does not understand your faith!"

    Let's look at this statement close and simple. The Bible teaches us that the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God. I am telling you that the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ is "a thing" of God. If that is true, then this restoration would only be understood by the Spirit of God. If I were able to give you understanding of it, then it would not be of God because I am not the Spirit of God. Is that not simple?

    Our message is that people can and must pray and ask of God for themselves, after they have read the Book of Mormon, and studied it (the message of the restoration) out in their hearts. That is the only sure way to prove this modern miracle. That is what I have done, many years ago, and my understanding has been increasing ever since (and continues to do so). I have had the confirmation of peace and joy, not to mention the burning within my heart that must be experienced to understand why this is so important, just as the disciples on the road to Emmaus experienced. We do not ask anything that is not Biblical, to confirm this restoration.

    There would be no need for a restoration if there was not a falling away, or an apostasy, from the Church that Jesus originally established with His apostles. That apostasy was not a work of God, but of man. Therefore, It can be made to understand. But even so, the Spirit will confirm this apostasy if asked in prayer, only with a desire to know and not a determination to disprove. That apostasy is confirmed by the documentary works in the 3 part video presentation, 1 hour each, that I invited you to review. It is an illustration, accompanied by interviews of scholars from many sources, about the circumstances that existed which led to the writing of the King James Bible. Did you look at it? Copy and paste this URL:
    http://byutv.org/show/123d4a82-3d47-488e-beda-2496a5a1ff2c

  • Darell Outhier August 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM

    Hard to keep up with all your comments Mitzi, but I am trying. Many of your comments delve into areas that require understanding of more basic concepts and truths. Much like climbing a ladder. You cannot step up on the 10th wrung of a ladder when standing on the 2nd or 3rd. We cannot ignore the rules and guidelines that are placed by God as we search for knowledge that comes ..."line upon line, and precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little..." If I were able to give you an answer to any or all of your questions, that would be a good sign that what I tell you is man made. And not to forget that perhaps I am not at the 10th wrung either.

    You said: "Also, God created us but he is not responsible for evil .....The Devil, demons, sin, and free will can all be held responsible for evil....We live in a fallen broken world...The bible saseys we are all born with a sinful nature and free will. *Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

    I insist (unless you can show me where my fault in reason is) that if God created everything from nothing, the He is responsible for evil. Who created the devil, the demons? Sin is simply an action by choice, hence it was not created. But free will enables sin. Who created or established free will? You CANNOT attribute free will as a cause of sin, because free will is exactly the same for the saved and the condemned. The difference between these two classes of individuals is the character, the spirit, that little "I am" within each of us. This character causes us to use free will to our advantage, or to our destruction. Who created the character of each individual? Why are we all so different? You say we are created from nothing. If so, then God made our character, our spirit, the little "I am" within each of us, tragically different. Therefore, He is responsible for the evil that surfaces when His creations choose to enable evil by their selfish and destructive choices.

    I do not see why people have such difficulty comprehending this simple concept. If something is created that did not exist prior, then the creator is responsible for its end results. If something that exists is enabled by giving it freedom and opportunity to become more than it is, with rules and guidelines to assist in its development and growth, then the thing that is enabled is responsible for its outcome.

  • Mitzi August 9, 2012 at 9:37 PM

    Darell,

    The reason I can answer your answers, are not because my answers are a sign of being man made, but they are a sign of TRUTH...Truth can always stand up to examination and hold its own! Do you trust feelings or facts? The bible is a sword, of living truth, and fights on its own. I don't have to have man made answers because the bible, being the word of God, has all the answers right in front of my eyes.

    Darell, there was no restoration needed. Christianity, and what Jesus taught, was still existent when Joseph Smith made his claim that all other teachings and religions were an abomination...There was not a complete falling away! Jesus didn't need some man, to recreate, or start over what he had already come to do. Why replace religion with RELIGION?Makes no sense.....Jesus wants a relationship!You need to examine the life of Joseph Smith a lot closer, and figure out if he had the spirit of God, or the spirit of something else. If he was a false prophet (which it is extremely evident that he was) then the whole foundation of Mormonism comes crumbling down! How intelligent people actually buy into this stuff in beyond me?!!

    Who exactly do you think created the devil? God created the angels...The devil had free will and accused God of making him love God. The devil is the accuser. Satan wanted to be just like God or better than God. That is why he was kicked out of heaven, and took a population of the angels with him (demons). Free will is a choice to love Jesus, and accept him, or deny him...What kind of love story would it be if you make someone love you? God does not force himself on anybody. However, heaven is still 100% equal opportunity..It is just one choice to make, and a simple concept, but you have to know the true Jesus Christ! Jesus is God,and God always has been, and always will be...There is but only one God! :)

    Darell, do you really have that inner peace inside of you, or do you just tell yourself that? I guarantee you are longing for answers to questions or you would not still be here...That burning sensation that every Mormon gets in their bosom is something that is very misleading and is a spirit of deception. I have felt the holy spirit, God has revealed himself to me on a few occasions, but it had nothing to do with the BOM...Just curious, have you ever felt the Holy Spirit, other than after reading the BOM, and praying extremely hard for God to reveal its truth?

  • Darell Outhier August 9, 2012 at 11:05 PM

    Mitzi: "That burning sensation that every Mormon gets in their bosom is something that is very misleading and is a spirit of deception."

    Why was it confirmed to be a factor of experience when the disciples had the scriptures opened up to them by the Spirit? Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    Heart and bosom are fairly close in proximity, I think it safe to say it is a real experience. To say our feelings are not involved with our understanding is the spirit of deception. How do we "apply our hearts to understanding" as repeatedly instructed in Proverbs?

    Mitzi: "Do you trust feelings or facts?"
    Facts are formed and figured by man. Feelings are the perfect compass if one's feelings are not corrupted. Eph 4: 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    19 Who being PAST FEELING have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    Mitzi, our feelings are a shared application. Physical stimulation can demand the attention of our feelings, by which our feelings become unreliable to understand the things that are spiritual. Our spirit can demand and dominate the attention of our feelings when we repent properly. That is when our feelings will be more reliable than our intellect, and confirm the things we understand intellectually, or tell us that something is not right when the world tells us otherwise. We cannot have the feelings of the Spirit when our hearts are set upon the pleasures of the world, just as we cannot enjoy the sweet taste of a grape when there are jalapenos in our mouth.

    Mitzi: "Darell, there was no restoration needed. Christianity, and what Jesus taught, was still existent when Joseph Smith made his claim that all other teachings and religions were an abomination...There was not a complete falling away! "

    You did not watch those documentary videos, did you! You have still not answered (among so many other questions) why was it necessary for Martin Luther to reform if everything that Jesus taught was still existent? Yet Martin Luther could not "restore" because the authority that Jesus gave His disciples was gone.

  • Darell Outhier August 10, 2012 at 12:26 AM

    Mitzi: "Who exactly do you think created the devil? God created the angels...The devil had free will and accused God of making him love God."

    So, the devil is a fallen angel,who is a creation out of nothing by God. He fell because of free will. If free will causes angels (or us) to falter, then why not all the angels and all of us?

  • Darell Outhier August 10, 2012 at 12:48 AM

    Mitzi: "I guarantee you are longing for answers to questions or you would not still be here..."

    I would not have the understandings that I have currently (which are not complete), without having a love for my fellow man. My love would be counterfeit and worthless if I did not want the same joy and peace for others that I have obtained. That is why I am still here.zi

    Mitzi: "Just curious, have you ever felt the Holy Spirit, other than after reading the BOM, and praying extremely hard for God to reveal its truth?"

    Yes, not as strong but the same Source is evident to me. When I see or hear of selfless acts of compassion by others to those in need. When I read scriptures and a new understanding comes to my heart. Once, about 30 years ago when I saw two women driving a truck with a flat tire, and hailed them to stop so I could change it for them. After the change, the driver (late 40's) said she just had back surgery, and that her elderly mother, nor herself could have changed that tire and they prayed for help. That humbled me to tears, because I started to drive off but felt an inspiration to turn around.

  • Mitzi August 10, 2012 at 6:26 PM

    Darell,

    Not all the angels fell because they also had FREE WILL..As far as people go, some choose to be born again, while others don't. We all have the capability of making our own decisions. I already explained this in great detail in an above post. God created us to think, and make decisions, as independent people. However, he did not tell us we could live how we so desire and in our flesh. God gave us a manual of life instructions, his word, his guide, the Holy Bible is a map for how we are supposed to live...Some just CHOOSE not to obey these instructions. A father can't make his kids obey and love him. He can only instruct them on how to live but it is up to the children...

    The holy spirit has revealed himself to me in ways that make it so it is undeniable that God exists..Not just in warm fuzzy feelings that I get when I help someone either! It is awesome that you are a good person and all, but that will not be enough in a perfect God's eyes. What is the standard of good to God whom is completely holy,pure, and perfect? We have all fallen short of his glory and all need a savior to forgive us. We must find the real Jesus Christ, and be born again, while here in this life, because after death will be too late!

    I just suggest you read the book of John and pray. Just remember we will all be held accountable for decisions we make here! You don't want to find yourself in an eternity of Hell because you loved your religion more than God. Don't make religion your God! Really Darell, who do you follow, Jesus Christ, or Joseph Smith?

  • Darell Outhier August 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM

    Mitzi: "Not all the angels fell because they also had FREE WILL."

    But you attributed free will as the cause of the devils fall. You said: "The devil had free will and accused God of making him love God." What then is the motivating factor that causes angels and men to use free will differently?

    Mitzi: "As far as people go, some choose to be born again, while others don't."

    And here is the point that you skirt around. This is the answer I want to hear from you. You just illustrated a major difference in people and the angels. Who created them different? In the foundation of your faith, God made them different because being created from nothing, everything they are must be the direct result of what God made them to be. And then you believe God eternally condemns those who chose poorly as a result of how God created them. How does one build faith on such a God?

    I do not thrive on being so negative, and I know God is just and His love is perfect. That is why we do not know God until we approach perfection ourselves by perfecting our love. We were created in His Image and in His likeness. That word, "likeness,"... what limitations are placed on how we are "like" God? Impossible to answer, since we are in our imperfect state and do not understand His perfection. But He gave us a plan and opportunity to develop the potential of our creation. As we repent, we shed our selfishness and improve our selflessness. That yields an increase of our capacity to love. In that process, we become more "like" Him, and our understanding of Him increases line upon line, and precept upon precept, because we are on a path to perfection and can only reach that perfection line upon line, and precept upon precept. Jesus was not less than ultimately serious when He commanded us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. That is something we must believe through faith, because as I just illustrated, we do not understand perfection until we are perfected. But as we gradually approach that "status," made possible by a Savior who loves us and suffered and died to make it possible, then our understandings gradually increase proportionally. We begin to shed the scales over our carnal eyes and start to see blurry visions of those things that are spiritual. As we "endure to the end" (which is part of our test of faith), the blurry things become more in focus. Those "first principles of the oracles of God", a fore mentioned, are absolutely essential in this process, including baptism, and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by those who are authorized by God to do so. Since these principles were lost due to the apostasy, spiritual blindness prevailed over the people, which is why so many Christian denominations have divided according to the way they "see" or understand what the Bible teaches.

    And also as a result of spiritual blindness, people today do not see the discrepancy of having faith in a God who created us from nothing.

  • Darell Outhier August 11, 2012 at 1:06 AM

    Mitzi: "It is awesome that you are a good person and all, but that will not be enough in a perfect God's eyes."

    That is not what I was trying to convey. The fact is, I was not a good person because the Spirit had to correct me. I am a better person than I was, .... but far from good. I understand "falling short" probably better than most.

    What I was conveying is the experience we have when the Spirit touches us, and how it is recognized. Feelings are a measuring stick if they are disciplined, but not the substance of the experience. God is Love. Our hearts are sensitive to Love. His Spirit cannot dwell within us without our hearts perceiving it, unless our hearts are focused on physical treasures, like the grape and the jalapeno conflict.

  • Darell Outhier August 11, 2012 at 7:03 PM

    Furthermore, Mitzi, we know as common belief that God's omniscience enables Him to know the eternal outcome of each of us before we were placed here on this earth. If created from nothing, then those who will be condemned are already doomed before they were created. Why would a loving God do that?

  • Ivanhoe August 12, 2012 at 4:49 PM

    Darell Outhier August 11, 2012 at 7:03 PM

    Furthermore, Mitzi, we know as common belief that God's omniscience enables Him to know the eternal outcome of each of us before we were placed here on this earth. If created from nothing, then those who will be condemned are already doomed before they were created. Why would a loving God do that?


    Mormons deny God is omniscience Darell ! what our you smoking ?

    Excerpted from "The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power" by D. Michael Quinn
    "Jan 7-8, 1960 - First Presidency decides that Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine “must not be re-published, as it is full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation.” They are exasperated that McConkie and his publisher released the book without pre-publication publicity or notifying First Presidency. Even his father-in-law, senior apostle, Joseph Fielding Smith, “did not know anything about it until it was published.” This is McConkie’s way to avoid repetition of Presidency’s stopping his pre-announced Sound Doctrine three years earlier.

    Committee of two apostles (Mark E Petersen and Marion G Romney) reports that McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine contains 1,067 doctrinal errors. For example, page 493 said: “Those who falsely and erroneously suppose that God is progressing in knowledge and gaining new truths cannot exercise sufficient faith in him to gain salvation until they divest themselves of their false beliefs.” However, McConkie is affirming doctrine of omniscience officially condemned by previous First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1865.”

    God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

    if God is still learning he is not omniscience

  • Ivanhoe August 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM

    Todays sermon very very anti-Mormon

    Eph 2:
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    We are saved apart from works, it is all by God's Grace.

    We are saved to do good works, it is all for God's Glory.

    So the good works are not to Exalt us but to exalt God

    Matthew 23:
    12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

    Luke 14:
    11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Luke 18:
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    one of todays Worship songs goes with message


    http://youtu.be/hbIg6MCHtHM

  • Mitzi August 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM

    Darell,

    We were created in God's likeness(not because God the father has flesh like us, or because we can become Gods ourselves, or because we have the same spirit as God) but because God literally blew life, and a spirit into Adam. At one time, Adam was spiritually perfect. However, after the fall, the spirit was broken (Adam was spiritually broken) and it caused it so now all humans are born with a sinful nature. "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:15

    Before the fall, Adam was sinless, perfect, and good (Gen. 1:31). He had a ‘good’ nature. But, after the fall, he became a sinner. His nature was changed from ‘good’ to ‘bad.’ Since we are his children, we inherit his sinful nature (Rom. 5:12). In this sense, we suffer for what Adam did; that is, he caused his descendants to have sinful natures and all of us suffer because of it. This is called original sin. It means that we have inherited a sinful nature and that all of what we are as individuals are touched by sin. through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12) That is why Jesus has to be accepted, and come into our hearts to make our spirits born again. Jesus renews our spirits, and brings back to life, dead, and broken spirits...

    Even though God knows the outcome of our lives, we still have a choice in the matter. He does not dictate how we choose to live our lives...He is not some puppet master pulling the strings...Ultimately, we still make the decision, and choose to believe in the true Jesus Christ, as our God and savior, be born again, and saved, or follow false prophets, and deny the truth...Please read the book of John and please do so out of a CHRISTIAN bible. By the way, you do not need to pray to have it's truth be revealed to you. The truth stands on it's own like a fighting sword. However, you need to pray that you are seeking the correct God... Tell me, should I go pick up the Koran, or a scientology/new age book, and pray to God for its truth to be revealed to me? I think God would not want us to do such a thing...There is enough proof to the bible, that we know its truth, and that is why it is labeled non- fiction, whereas the Book of mormon is labeled fiction..In the end, you cannot blame God concerning where you spend eternity. You will have to blame yourself!!

  • Darell Outhier August 13, 2012 at 2:30 PM

    Mitzi: "Even though God knows the outcome of our lives, we still have a choice in the matter. He does not dictate how we choose to live our lives..."

    No, He doesn't, but according to your beliefs, He does create the character of every individual, by which character we are either obedient or rebellious, humble or proud, evil bound or seekers of living by light and truth.

    I guess I need to ask you flat out "yes or no" questions.
    Did God create our character? Yes or no?

    Are those who God knows (even before their creation) that they will reject Him, doomed before they are born? Yes or no? (If no, then could God be wrong?)

  • Darell Outhier August 13, 2012 at 2:51 PM

    Mitzi: ".Please read the book of John and please do so out of a CHRISTIAN bible. By the way, you do not need to pray to have it's truth be revealed to you."

    Is that the advice God would give me, don't need prayer to understand truth?

  • Mitzi August 13, 2012 at 5:48 PM

    Darell,

    I have explained this before to you. God CREATED a soul, and a spirit, in each individual. A person's character (the soul) grows with life experiences, environment, choices, decisions, and such.The soul,which makes up who you are, is in a constant war with your spirit and your flesh.There is a choice to let the flesh take over the soul and a choice to keep the spirit dead, by not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, and getting forgiveness for sin. We all have to become born again to enter into heaven. There can't be sin in the presence of God. However, heaven is equal opportunity for EVERYONE! I don't believe anyone is born doomed. A person dooms their own self by the choices they make while existing here on earth. It's not God's fault how a person turns out or if they end up in Hell. God did not create people to be robots, they have free will, to make choices. He also created them in his image, with a perfect spirit ... but they (Adam and Eve) had fee will, so they chose to disobey and be bad! Sin happened, so their spirits were no longer perfect, and they passed that sinful nature/dead spirit down to all of us..Thank God, he had a plan to save us from second death (Hell) He sent himself manifested in flesh, Jesus, to die for our sins, so he can come into our spirits and makes us born again, so that we don't have to go to Hell! Hell was not even originally intended for people, but the the wages of sin were death, and we all inherit a sinful nature, and need a savior.

    God is never wrong and never makes mistakes. I sure would not want to be a person questioning God's capabilities, of being able to create something from the invisible, and being able to keep his word together exactly as he intends to do so!

    About the prayer thing, you took that way out of context. That is not what I said. I said that we should not have to pray to God to ask God if a book is truth or not. The holy Bible, being God's word, has made itself known that it is truth. It has stood up to the test of TIME and examination!

  • Mitzi August 13, 2012 at 5:49 PM

    Continued:

    Where is there any evidence that anything in the Book of Mormon has any truth to it? There is actually more evidence stacking against it, than for it...Time, facts, and evidence is for sure not on the side of the Book of Mormon. It has been altered/changed over 4,000 times. Archeologists have found it to be very flawed. My God, of the Holy Bible, could not be the author of confusion or contradictions. He is not going to let anyone flaw his word. If God created everything, from the invisible, then he can keep his word together exactly how he intends it to be..No man can corrupt his word. That is why the Apocrypha is not a part of the bible. It's nothing more than adding to the already inspired Word of God, and not one man can do that! Now let me ask you a question, do you just overlook, and deny, every verse in the Holy bible that completely goes against the Mormon religion??? Do you blame it on corrupted translations and errors of men? Please answer, because I'm very curious as to how you dance around plainly obvious scripture, of the Holy Bible, that goes against everything you are trying to tell me!

  • Mitzi August 14, 2012 at 9:39 AM

    Darell,

    Not to mention the fact that DNA has proved the Book of Mormon False! You should watch DNA vs. the Book of Mormon! DNA sends people to skid row...DNA should have sent this book to its death as well! It would save a lot of souls....

  • Mitzi August 14, 2012 at 10:45 PM

    Darell,

    I just returned from a Christian church service...A prophetic word was spoken over me via a man with the gift of prophecy. It was a word that was unique, special to me, and something that only God himself could have known about! There was no denying that the Holy spirit, was there in that place, along with a multitude of angels! The presence of the Holy spirit was so strong!! Darrell,I have felt, and heard from the one and only true God... Tonight, once again, he revealed himself to me!! God is good! :) He is so good! I had to share this with you! I am overwhelmed with joy and awe right now...!

  • Ivanhoe August 15, 2012 at 10:01 AM

    Mitzi August 14, 2012 at 10:45 PM

    Darell,

    I just returned from a Christian church service...

    Almost every Church service I go is some how against the Mormon Faith since We study the Bible so much there. Mormonism is 180 degrees opposte Christianity. It's like Paganism clothed in Christian terminolgy, yet each word that's the Mormons use that's Christian has a Pagan meaning.

  • Darell Outhier August 16, 2012 at 2:41 AM

    Mitzi: "About the prayer thing, you took that way out of context. That is not what I said. I said that we should not have to pray to God to ask God if a book is truth or not. The holy Bible, being God's word, has made itself known that it is truth. It has stood up to the test of TIME and examination!"

    Apologies for being out of context. But my point hits home in context to what I have been trying to express. Of course the Bible is a true factual history. It contains at least two types of truth. The external truth that can be measured by the world and seen by the eye, and the internal truths that are only measured and discerned by the repentant hearts. Jesus taught in parables because the principles of doctrine were hidden to they eyes and minds of most that listened. But physical truths (the parables) that mirrored the spiritual truths could plant ideas in their minds for the heart to ponder, if they would.
    The Bible still contains those spiritual truths that are not readily seen or understood, and must be discovered anew by each and every individual on a personal basis with the Spirit, and yes, we must pray to understand them, along with works and repentance to have these hidden truths opened to us, one by one. My personal experience has proven that a greater truth will not be opened to us by the Spirit until we prove that we will live by the level of light, or in harmony with a lesser truth that has been opened to us.

    The seriousness of this process perhaps can be apprectiated by the fact that the same Spirit that gives us spiritual truth, and reveals the principles of the Bible to our understanding, is the same Spirit that bears witness of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. We know that if we deny the Witness of Jesus, after the Spirit has revealed Him to us, we become perdition and are lost forever. So, do you think that the Spirit will give us that greatest of all revelations when we continue to stumble and choke on the partial truths that He gives us, line upon line and precept upon precept?

    Please ponder on this, ..... and perhaps pray and ask if what I speak is correct.

  • Ivanhoe August 16, 2012 at 9:26 AM

    Zechariah 12

    King James Version (KJV)


    12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    The Bible says Jehovah created our spirits and we are children by adoption

    • Ephesians 1:5
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    • Galatians 4:5
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    • Romans 8:15
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.•

    Romans 8:23
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    • Romans 9:4
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

  • Mitzi August 16, 2012 at 1:21 PM

    Darell, This is the divine nature of God:

    We cannot conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are independent Gods, because the Bible says there is ONE God.

    God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well."Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient."



    God works in three ways: God the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. I think for most, it is easy to see that the God the Father (Heavenly Father) is God.The Father is God. (Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1) We need to see that Jesus,the Son, is God as well! Jesus is God from the beginning (John 1: 1-18) Even though they all serve their own separate purposes, they all are connected together to make up ONE..ONLY ONE GOD! There are occasions when God refers to himself in plural terms (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8)

    God the Father put His Seed (the son) directly into VIRGIN Mary. The Bible says that of which is conceived in Mary is from the Holy Spirit. (Matthew chapter 1) She was not impregnated by sex, it was done supernaturally through the Holy Spirit. This Seed(the son), through the Holy Spirit was placed inside of Mary, as it came directly out of the God the Father. Therefore, the Seed (the only begotten Son,Jesus) is the father, and remember, the Father is God as well. While the Flesh/body form of Jesus was created, the Spirit form of Jesus (the son), was not created, it ALWAYS existed (as God). Therefore the spirit of Jesus is completely God.

    Jesus was born from a human virgin Mary,with a body, so he can be referred to as the Son of man. However, Jesus was clearly not like a regular man. Jesus, in his flesh, had his own free will, but remained sinless. Not possible for a human being. We are all born into a sinful nature. Lastly, what man that does not have the strength of God himself, would have been able to do something such as dying on the cross? Watch the movie "Passion of the Christ" and you will understand that only God himself could go through with such a thing! Jesus says“I and the Father are one” (John 10:38, 17:11,21Jesus says“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (John 14:11) . Jesus is the part of God that we can actually see and relate to... Jesus was here on earth to show us that God is a loving God. God revealed himself to us as a loving Father through Jesus Christ! He came down to this corrupted, nasty, sinful earth, to save us!!! God has felt the same emotions as what we as humans feel, and can sympathize with us, for what we have gone through, and what we will go through..What an awesome God we have!

  • Mitzi August 16, 2012 at 1:22 PM

    Continued:

    I think it is pretty obvious that God is a holy Spirit!The Holy Spirit is God (John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19). I believe the holy spirit is what makes God able to be present EVERYWHERE and know EVERYTHING all at the same time.“I will send the Spirit of truth … for he lives with and will be in you … I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you”. (John 14:17-18, 20) The Holy Spirit draws us to Jesus, than if we ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins, it allows our relationship with God the Father to be restored. When we remove sin from our life, by asking Jesus for Forgiveness, and turning away from the sin, (repenting) that is when we can start to hear God the Father speaking to us! We then can receive his blessings that he has prepared for us! The Holy Spirit has the ability to surround you and pour out onto you. The holy spirit can also live inside you, along with the Son, when you have accepted Jesus into your heart. When Jesus left the earth and went to Heaven, is when the Holy spirit came down to earth, to pour over people. When I worship the Lord with other believers, the Holy Spirit can be felt in the surroundings. I can also feel the Holy Spirit inside of me as well!! It is the most AWESOME feeling ever knowing that God himself is in the presence:)

    GOD Was the only being that could undo the CURSE OF SIN because he was the ultimate PERFECT/SINLESS sacrifice. However, a body was needed, because only human flesh can actually DIE. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Before Jesus died on the cross for our sins, innocent lambs were sacrificed..ect.. Jesus had to die on that cross, as the perfect sacrifice, in order for us to be forgiven of our sins. When Jesus died on that cross, we were able to defeat the law and curse of the devil's plan, of us all DYING, in our SECOND death, in hell, for all eternity. "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:3-4) "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24) Due to this, we could be washed clean of our sins, simply by asking for forgiveness, and accepting his free gift of grace!"But he was pierced for our transgressions,he was crushed for our iniquities, The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)

  • Mitzi August 16, 2012 at 1:23 PM

    Once you accept Jesus into your heart, start walking with him, and getting his word (the Holy Bible) ingrained into your mind and heart, you will also find that you start to turn away from sinful desires as well! It is an amazing thing! :) The Holy Bible is life's complete owner's manual on how to live right so that you can be a true child of God! Also, Jesus died for us, but in all reality, we are the sinful ones that deserved this punishment, not Jesus... therefore, we owe our entire lives to him. We owe it to Jesus to not abuse his grace, and instead turn our backs on sin, and commit our lives to him!

    "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. John 1:2 The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth. John 1:14 ** The word is Jesus as he has many different names in the bible.

    "There is but one God" COR 8....

    **Think of a glass of water, with ice cubes, and steam coming out of the top due to the cold..They are all together as ONE, and made from the same thing, but are in different forms, and have different purposes. :)





  • Mitzi August 16, 2012 at 5:22 PM

    Darell,

    Does it matter that Joseph Smith was involved with occultist practices and magic? Would the God of the Bible use such a person to restore the "only true church" (if in fact a restoration was needed?)

    Yes, it does matter and no God would not have used an unrepentant occultist to restore the "only true church." However, the Bible promises that God would forever preserve His church and promises that His words (the true Gospel) would never be lost.

    To believe in the claims of Joseph Smith & Mormonism is to make the Bible & God out to be a liar. God forbid; let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (NKJV)
    10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.

    Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Matthew 24:35 (NKJV)
    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away

  • Darell Outhier August 16, 2012 at 10:52 PM

    MItzi, your presentation of the Trinity and of salvation I well know, but cannot understand. Salvation cannot be real in a setting where the candidates for salvation are created from nothing and are saved or damned for being exactly what God created them to be. Your explanations of this do not satisfy the root of the problem, and you veer off from the subject before asking me if I even understand what you tried to present. How could you expect me to grasp and hold your follow up "testimony" of God's plan if I still have doubts of foundational issues like our creation? You say that we are free to choose and do not have to choose what God already knew about how the outcome would be. Are you saying we have power to make God wrong? Impossible! Therefore, we ARE doomed before we take our first breath on earth, .... that is if we are created exnihilo, or from nothing.

    And you have also veered away from the topic of the necessity of prayer to understand the truth of the Bible. Of what value is there in presenting to me the outlines of your faith, if I have deep doubts about how you have obtained your understanding of your faith? This is not an attack by any means. I am giving you the opportunity to help me to see the things you believe, and patiently waiting for you to do so. If my doubts still remain, certainly I am going to reject the structure of your faith when my doubts point at the foundation of your beliefs, which is how you obtained your understanding. PLEASE, understand my doubts and make sure they are resolved before going on.

    My response to your "prayer and Bible understanding" is most important to me. I acknowledged that a person should be able to see that the Bible is a correct and true document of history and indeed declares many things that are rightfully declared to be true. That, I agree, does not need prayer to understand. But to study and comprehend the teachings, to see if they are true, does indeed require prayer and attitude adjustments of self behavior that reflects the willingness to live by the truth you want to understand (aka: faith). My perspective shows me (and again, this is not an attack, but what I see as real and invite correction if I am wrong) that the teachings of the Bible were rejected and abandoned by the church in Rome. The true meaning of scriptures was lost to the insights of man because of wickedness. I offered an extensive illustration in the form of video presentation to back that up, when I posted the link multiple times. These three vidoes (1 hr. each) document the events that lead to the making of the King James Bible. The corruption affecting understanding of scripture was confirmed by those who gave their lives as marters, when they gave their all to reform the church.
    Continued:

  • Darell Outhier August 16, 2012 at 10:52 PM

    Continued:

    Ever since then, the church has divided over conflicting interpretation of the Bible. Indeed, in recent years past these divisions were hostile events among the body of believers, while today it is accepted that believers can believe differently. IS THIS NOT A SIGN THAT UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE WAS OBTAINED WITH0UT PRAYER? If Christians had prayed about the Bible with faith that God would give them wisdom and understanding, as promised in James, then they would have received the same answers! Or maybe they didn't like, or want the answer God gave them.

    Whatever the case, if you wan't me to trust your heart felt presentation of how you see the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you must provide an answer for the doubts I have presented. Indeed, I am asking you the reason of the hope that is in you and have asked for answers to specifics that I see as conflicts. You are asking of me a great deal to abandon my faith for yours. I think I have the right to present my doubts and to have them resolved.

  • Darell Outhier August 17, 2012 at 4:26 AM

    Mitzi: "Once you accept Jesus into your heart, start walking with him, and getting his word (the Holy Bible) ingrained into your mind and heart, you will also find that you start to turn away from sinful desires as well! It is an amazing thing! :) "

    I have major doubts on the order or sequence of events here. I have often listened to Christian Radio programs and heard many times of people describing how they were "rescued" from the peak of sin by accepting Jesus into their lives, and were changed. Too many Bible lessons tell me different.
    In particular, Job tells us that to depart from evil is understanding. (Job 28:28) . If that is true, then if follows that the inverse is true, that to embrace sin is to blind you from understanding. So many scriptures confirm this! So, when do you think that Satan would be at the best advantage to deceive a person and convince them of a "false Jesus"( as we are so often accused of worshiping)? And it would be so easy for Satan to simulate a sense of "peace," so as to further deceive them, as follows. We sin due to Satan's temptations, and he can pour it on heavy. What would stop him from abruptly laying off the temptation after teaching someone of a false Christ, so they would have a sensation of burdens lifted? And they think Christ did this.

    The process of coming to Jesus, accepting Him, and establishing a true relationship with Him STARTS with turning away from sin. And that is when Satan pours on temptation the most! Indeed, we are born again by overcoming the world (1John 5: 4-5), and the experience is what yields the understandings that have eluded so many for so long since the apostasy. Faith is developed and strengthened from this battle with Satan, due to the supplication to the Father for His strength to accomplish what is otherwise impossible for us alone, as we take upon ourselves the yoke of Christ. We will experience that great sacrifice required of us, of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, as we battle with Satan to overcome our sins. This is the Refiner's Fire, that removes the dross of pride from our souls and leaves us the remains of humility, thus prepared to enter into the presence of God, .... that is if we endure to the end.

  • Ivanhoe August 17, 2012 at 10:00 AM


    Darell Outhier August 16, 2012 at 10:52 PM

    The process of coming to Jesus, accepting Him, and establishing a true relationship with Him STARTS with turning away from sin.---------

    Mormon leaders say avoid a personal relationship with Jesus and no worship of him ?


    Our Relationship with the Lord
    BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

    [Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus.] I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.
    We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

    [We do not worship the Son,] and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
    Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.
    After the Firstborn of the Father, while yet a spirit being, had gained power and
    intelligence that made him like unto God; after he had become, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number; after he had reigned on the throne of eternal power as the Lord Omnipotent--after all this he yet had to gain a mortal and then an immortal body.

    http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843




  • Mitzi August 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM

    Darell,

    God is all knowing, and yes, he does know the outcome, but that does not mean that we are not the ones in control of our own outcomes. We decide what the outcome is! We make decisions and choices that guide us where we end up for an eternity.. Heaven or Hell!
    Also,I am not talking religion here. Kill your religion and build your relationship..Jesus does not want us BINDED or chained to a religion. He wants a relationship with us! Why are you having doubts about our creation? Why don't you just accept it, as it is told in the Bible, instead of what has been twisted from a man made concept. God created us, and he gives an explanation in his word (Holy Bible) as to how things were created. You need to trust God more my friend. We were never spirit babies...We came down through Adam and Eve. It all makes so much more common sense than the beliefs of the mormon religion. Mormonism goes against the Holy Bible in so many ways.

    We are not born again by overcoming the world. We are born again, when Jesus comes inside of us, and we accept him into our hearts, as our Lord and savior, and he works through us on changing our sinful nature, and we then have a desire to obey his commandments. How are we supposed to truly start turning away from sin, without the help of his guidance of him living inside of us? How are we supposed to get forgiveness of sin if he is not asked to be our personal savior? His holy spirit inside of us calls us to repent when we sin! When we start building a relationship with him, we want to start obeying him, and respecting him. That is why we want to stay out of sin. It is due to our love and respect for the Lord...It is not about getting points or working anywhere....

    So,are you saying that those that are still wrapped up in sin, are not worthy of Jeusus coming inside of them, and changing their lives? I think that Jesus is a doctor for the sick! Church is not a country club for a bunch of perfect people...Jesus accepts all those that accept him. For example, look at the story in the bible of the prostitute that was in all kinds of sin, including fornication. Jesus forgave her and told her to go sin no more...He didn't say "Well you need to stop sinning first then I can come into your life to forgive you!" It does not work that way.

  • Mitzi August 17, 2012 at 7:28 PM

    Darell,

    I have been thinking more about what you said about how we come to have a relationship with Jesus....We should not think that before we come to Jesus we must first clean ourselves up. The harder you try to clean yourself up, the more in debt you become. Being saved means relaxing and letting Jesus save you, and accepting the fact that we can never save ourselves. We must drop all forms of pride. God says, "Now to the one that works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But the one who does not work, but believes him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." Romans 4:4-5 The lost fail to grasp the simplicity of salvation. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works,so that no man should boast." Ephesians 2:8
    You will not find a boaster in heaven- a man that thought he somehow helped God save him!

  • Darell Outhier August 17, 2012 at 8:18 PM

    Mitzi, what is a yoke?

  • Mitzi August 17, 2012 at 10:04 PM

    Darell,

    Where are you going with this? As Christians, God told us that we are not supposed to be unequally yoked as a BELIEVER with an UNBELIEVER...A yoke is a beam where two animals are joined together at the head or neck in order to work together...Two believers, that are truly a part of the body of Christ, and are born again, can work together for God, regardless of what building they attend to worship God... P.S God enjoys different forms of worship! As long as you are worshiping the one, and only God, of the Holy Bible that is!

    Darell, you can go back in your tangent about divisions amongst Christian churches, but we still all learn from, and acquire our beliefs from the same word of God, all have the same God, and believe his nature is Father, son, spirit,all ONE God. Each Christian church may have different styles of worship and preaching. However, they all worship, and gain understanding through the same holy spirit. The one and only Holy spirit!

    Please stop denying the fact that there are branches and divisions amongst Mormonism, and for crying out loud, it is only over two hundred years old! These branches all came from your founder, Joseph Smith and his teachings. He is the foundation but all the branches/divisions interpret things and teach they way they like to do so...Using more than just the Holy Bible to learn from is the trap!

    I would stop worrying about Christian churches,and if we have the correct spirit (because I assure you we do) and start figuring out that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet of God, and has misled and deceived every person that follows his teaching rather it be Church of Christ, Temple Lot -- a group of LDS in bought a lot for a Temple in Independence, Missouri, or William Smith's Church of Jesus Christ -- brother of Joseph and member of the Twelve; split off when Young and he could not agree. After a brief tour with the Strangites, started his own church, which later teamed with Lyman Wright's group and finally dissolved. Smith became a member of the RLDS.Now there is the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) and then there are the FLDS , fundamentalists that still practice polygamy, just like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did. BTW, the Mountain Meadows Massacre was an act of violence and disgust on the LDS part. It is an issue.

    Also, if we as Christians,have so called divisions due to not understanding the true spirit, than why are so many Mormons try to make it look as though they are Christians? Believing in Christ does not make you a Christian. Even the devil and his fallen angels believe in Christ...Any religion that puts God at the same level as an angel, is a religion that has an anti Christ spirit over it. Jesus is not related to Lucifer, he created Lucifer!! Jesus is God.

  • Darell Outhier August 17, 2012 at 11:54 PM

    Mitzi: "Being saved means relaxing and letting Jesus save you, ..."
    Jesus never said relax and let Him do all the work.

    He did say in Matthew 11: 28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    The yoke you described is fitted with beasts of equal strength, to accomplish the work at hand. The heavy burdens we bear are from sin and are so much more difficult than the works that Jesus, with His help on the other side of the yoke, requires of us. You do not "relax" in a yoke. There is no salvation in "relaxing." But compared to sin, doing the works of Christ is easy and restful.

    Enduring to the end is a requirement for salvation. Matthew 24: 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold .13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. I often wonder how people can say they are saved when the end is still ahead! Much can happen with trials and temptations yet to face. But if we remain in that yoke, we can be assured we will attain that salvation.

    Also consider this important promise from God. 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    If we could sit back and "relax," then we are not putting fort the necessary efforts to bear the temptations that God has deamed we are able to endure.

    If you find yourself "relaxed", then I would be sore afraid that Satan has abruptly stopped tempting you as I described yesterday, because he has you where he wants you, and by making you feel comfortable there, he knows you will stay.

  • Darell Outhier August 18, 2012 at 12:28 AM

    Mitzi: "Darell, you can go back in your tangent about divisions amongst Christian churches, but we still all learn from, and acquire our beliefs from the same word of God, all have the same God, ...."

    If that is true, then you must believe that the same Spirit of God teaches different and conflicting doctrines to different people, and approves of the divisions (contrary to scripture) they committed to separate, because they couldn't worship with people having views they didn't share. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if the apostles were still there to iron out those problems?

    Mitzi: "Please stop denying the fact that there are branches and divisions amongst Mormonism, ...."

    First of all, please show me where I have ever denied these divisions. How can I stop something I have never done?

    Of course there are divisions. There have always been apostates throughout history. The purpose of the gospel is to divide the chaff and the wheat, and there are many ways this can be accomplished. The difference between the divisions that parted from the Restored Church of Jesus Christ, and those among Protestant Christianity is that we do not accept those divisions as part of the body of Christ. In Protestant Christianity, you have no choice because there are no more apostles to iron out the problems, and every assumed leader in each division has the same right to go on with their errors as the next. If they point a finger, many fingers point back.

    It used to be quite ugly and contentious, but over the years they learned to peacefully "agree to disagree," which is nothing short of an oxymoron, if it really is truth that sets us free. Who has the truth? Answer: The one who truly listens, learns, and obeys the truth given by the Spirit. Which one (division) is it? When you can tell me that for sure, then you will also have the Spirit of understanding and will begin to understand the message of the Restoration.

  • Darell Outhier August 18, 2012 at 4:19 AM

    Mitzi: "God is all knowing, and yes, he does know the outcome, but that does not mean that we are not the ones in control of our own outcomes. We decide what the outcome is! We make decisions and choices that guide us where we end up for an eternity.. Heaven or Hell!"

    You did not answer my direct question. Perhaps you need me to rephrase it. Can a person make God wrong, after his own creation by making choices different than what God already knew he would make before his creation? (Y/N)

    You say man created out of nothing is free to choose, but how free is he really?
    You are correct when you say we were not created as pre-programmed robots. But by creatio exnihilo, that is exactly what you have! That leaves only one solution and answer. We were not created out of nothing!

  • Mitzi August 18, 2012 at 9:14 AM

    Darell,

    Exactly, Jesus gives us rest when we come to him!! Reading your responses, I am amazed on just how much mormonism is turning Christianity completely backwards...sigh. First of all, when you use the word God, who are you even talking about? Who is your God? Who is the God of Mormonism, because it is not the same God, as my God in the Holy Bible.

    You have passed up so many of my questions, and then you expect me to answer your questions that only God himself can exactly know, and understand..Can you imagine an ant standing at the foot of a human and trying to understand everything about us? That is like humans questioning every move God has made and why! He is just too big, and mighty, and some things we just will not quite comprehend in this life, such as how he has been Alpha and Omega. He has always been, always will be, and there is no other but him!

    A person can never make God wrong. God is never wrong! I can't believe a question like that can even cross your mind! God knows the choices we will make, a person is not cabable of making choices differently of what God already knows. However, a person can decide rather to live inside, or outside, of God's will. I think God has good things planned for his children, but we can walk outside of the STRAIGHT path, and try to do things our own way, instead of his. I believe when we live for the world, in our flesh, and not for him, we change what he has planned for us..I think our lives can go in many different directions, and things change, depending on our choices, and yes, he knows exactly what we will choose, but we have the free willl to choose. Whatever happens in this life, he does know, but we ultimately affect our own life, destiny, and our eternity as well.

    Who knows maybe God puts souls, and spirits, into certain people born into certain cultures/ false religions because he knew that they would never even try to find truth or seek him...these are things we can only assume. God does know the beginning from the end, and there are things that only God is meant to know. We can't ever be on his level or have his knowledge. NEVER! That is why sin came in, man wanting all the knowledge, and Satan wanting to be like God. Darell, there is nothing more I can say to you. At this point, we are going around in circles, because you find a way to twist everything I say. I feel you are not pondering on what I have to say to you, but rather finding a way to warp it. God bless you, and I will pray that you can find your way out of the deceit, and lies, of the Mormon Church. Believe me, if you don't get out of this, you will remember this entire conversation, and the chance you had to find the truth, and the real Jesus Christ. When I think of Hell, the word REGRET and SORROWS first come to mind.

  • Ivanhoe August 18, 2012 at 10:56 AM

    My Blog on Mormonism, Our worship leaders went to Biola along with lots of friends from Church since I go to Baptist Church


    http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalmon.blogspot.com/

  • Mitzi August 18, 2012 at 12:15 PM

    Darell Outhier July 3, 2012 at 10:23 PM-

    You stated:

    "You may reject the calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet, and the ordained apostles that have been on the earth since that Restoration, that is your freedom of choice, and your responsibility to investigate thourghly. But until you do find that Church that Jesus once established for the UNITY of the faith, you will be in darkness."

    -My question is, what about all the mormon splinter groups that do still abide by the calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet, and follow his teachings......they believe accordingly to your above statement. Are they all somehow in darkness, and not in unity of faith, because someone of the current LDS church now says so? The Mormon religion has all kind of splinter groups. So, you can not use the fact that the Christian churches having different denominations, against us, when your own church does so as well...It is way hypocritical!

    I follow Jesus, not some man made restoration, that was never ever needed in the first place, and was made up by a boy that played with magic rocks, and inspired by the devil himself..It is a false gospel, and the devil is using it to steal souls, in a very conniving mannerism. It is like a giant wolf, in sheep's clothing, just waiting to devour souls... I would say the BOM is as about as real as Harry Potter. When you play with magic, and that bad spiritual side, it can conjure up bad spirits......All I know is, that is not the kind of book I would put all my faith in.

  • Darell Outhier August 18, 2012 at 10:42 PM


    I can certainly see how you would perceive it that way, but the fact is, Christianity was turned backwards many years ago, and you perceive presently it to be normal because it was presented to you in this age as correct. I offered the evidence by scholars around the world of how Christianity was turned backwards via the Roman Church. This evidence is packaged into a well written, well planned, and well illustrated video that presents the making of the King James Bible. IT IS THE HISTORY OF YOUR CHRISTIAN FAITH!

    So, in this sense yes, Mormonism is turning today's Christianity backwards so as to make it like it was originally when Jesus established it with apostles to care for His sheep. When I use the word "God", to answer your question, I am using the word that describes diety as was understood by relatively few Christians in the original Church. I say few, because of the issues we discussed in Hebrews where Jesus could not be taught to the Hebrews because they did not remember or apply the first principles of the oralces of God. When you say: "...when you use the word God, who are you even talking about? Who is your God? Who is the God of Mormonism, because it is not the same God, as my God in the Holy Bible." .... I am satisfied that you have not yet discovered the true God of the Bible, because as our prior discussion documents, you did not even know about the first principles of the oracles of God, and how they are a requirement to understand God. This is not an offensive attack, it comes from the heart with genuine desire for you to know Him, as I accept that your efforts are for the same, done with love.

    Continued...

  • Darell Outhier August 18, 2012 at 11:56 PM

    Continuation .....
    Mitzi: "You have passed up so many of my questions, and then you expect me to answer your questions that only God himself can exactly know, and understand."

    If you review my efforts, you might notice a pattern of identifying what I see are errors in your questions, and asking for your clarification if your questions are really valid. That may sound condescending, but please do not perceive it so. I cannot answer erroneous questions. I have validated my concerns to your questions with solid teachings and truths from the Bible, and I get no response to these. Yes, you have asked many other questions, but they mostly rely on the validity of the key issues I challenged as erroneous in your previous questions.

    Mitzi: "Can you imagine an ant standing at the foot of a human and trying to understand everything about us? That is like humans questioning every move God has made and why!"

    So, here is a realtime example of me doubting the validity of your question, hence, the issues and questons that you might build after this first question do not stand if this one does not stand. Mitzi, was that ant created in the image and likeness of the human? (I remember your difference of "image and likeness" to mine, irrelivant to this point)
    Was the ant given a similar promise from man, as the promise from God TO man? John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    Did the human command the ant to be perfect, as the humans father is perfect?

    God revealed to man many aspects of His characterisics. So while I agree that we may never know the mysteries of God in this life, we can know the things about Him that He has revealed. I am sure that He revealed these attributes of Himself to help us find "the only true God". And that is exactly why I am drilling the point of creatio exnihilo. That doctrine cannot co-exist with a Just and Loving God.

    Continued: ....

  • Darell Outhier August 19, 2012 at 12:38 AM

    Mitzi, this is the crux of the erroneous doctrine (that we are created from nothing), and I think you know perfectly well what I am getting at, but deflect my explanations and points as you do in your response here: "A person can never make God wrong. God is never wrong! I can't believe a question like that can even cross your mind! God knows the choices we will make, a person is not cabable of making choices differently of what God already knows. However, a person can decide rather to live inside, or outside, of God's will."
    It was an obvious rhetorical question that I posed. It was a question that "normally" would NOT cross my mind. But when an "abnormal" doctrine is presented to me, that doctrine WILL produce abnormal questions. That (the abnormal doctrine of creatio exnihilo) is the source and purpose of my abnormal question, and your answer above just completely contradicted itself and proves my point. How can a person decide to "live inside God's will" when God knew, way before that person was created, that he would live outside His will? THERE IS NO FREE WILL WITH THE DOCTRINE OF BEING CREATED OUT OF NOTHING! (capitalization used for emphasis, not shouting)

  • Mitzi August 19, 2012 at 10:15 AM

    Darell,

    How was Christianity turned backwards by the Catholic Roman Church? Once again, the Catholics did not translate the Bible, and a true Christian follows the Bible, and the Bible alone. The Antioch Christian disciples, put together all the records, under the supervision of King James. King James was not Catholic, he was Protestant. The Alexandrian manuscript that the Catholics use, has nothing to do with the Holy Bible, and the Apocrypha did not make it into the Holy Bible for a reason. It was not what God wanted in his word, and he will keep his word together, just as he intends to do so... Heavens and earth shall pass away but his words shall not pass away- Luke 21:33. The Roman church has no influence over my non denominational Christian beliefs. I believe out of the Holy Bible, inspired by God himself. I do not follow organized religion of any sort. Like I said before, killl your religion, and build your relationship with Jesus. After all, no one comes to the Father, but through Jesus, He is the way, the truth, and the life-John 14:6.

    All my theology comes directly from the bible, which was inspired by God, and God breathed, not a man made thing. If my theology is "abnormal" to you then the God of the Holy bible must be adnormal to you. I'm not sure why you think it's okay, to have a different God, then the God spoken of in the Holy Bible, whom is also the author of that bible (it is his word)...The True God has revealed himself through his word, not some secret meaning to the oracles, that mormons have twisted, and taken out of context.

    The ant comment was an analogy, as you and I both agree, we can never really understand the full workings of God, and how he came to be. My God is Alpha and Omega. He is the one and only God. Mormons believe in many Gods,polytheism. In fact, the Mormon God "of this planet" was a man on another planet (Kolob) that worked his way to Godhood, and is now able to be the God of our planet, and produces spirit babies with a Goddess wife. These spirit babies used to live in heaven, and then were sent to earth to become us! The God according to Mormons, also used to be Adam, who used to be Micheal the archangel! Look it up in your own records..This is all documented in the Mormon teachings, and so is the fact that after death,you can become a God of your own planet, if you work hard enough, and go through all the mormon rituals... I would like to know where Mormons get all this crap from? This is not anywhere in the Bible. I don't believe any of this is even anywhere in the Book of Mormon, but is taught in other records, that your religion abides by. This is all MAN inpsired junk with the help of bad spirits..The Holy spirit has nothing to do with any of this nonsense that is leading people astray.

  • Mitzi August 19, 2012 at 10:15 AM

    Continued:

    If you don't believe God is responsible for all of creation, then who exactly is? We can never become Gods, but yes, we were created in his image. I already explained this to you in an earlier post. Adam and Eve were perfect, before sin, and the fall of man...They had perfect spirits, and their spirits were meant to live forever, just like God's spirit lives forever. After the fall, the wages of sin, was death, and man's spirit was broken, and doomed to second death in hell. The sinful nature is passed down to us from Adam and Eve. All of mankind came down through them, not as these so called spirit babies. However, we don't have to experience second death, and go to hell, because Jesus, being a PERFECT sacrafice, died for us, and undone the curse of death. The catch is, he is the only way to heaven, and we must accept him as our savior, while here on earth. Anyone that believes otherwise, and that there is a second chance to confess, is getting fooled by the devil. This life, is our one, and only chance, to accept the true Jesus Christ, whom is God, and get forgiveness of our sins from him.

    The father is a spirit, not flesh. The only part of God that we can see is Jesus. The bible says not one man has seen the father and lived. Exodus 33:20,John 1:18,1 Timothy 6:15..Once again, the only part of God that can be seen is JESUS! There is no way Jospeh Smith saw both the Father, and son, at the same time..By the way, Jospeh Smith's account of that visit changed approx eight times! Talk about can't getting the STORY straight.

    Darell, I answered your questions about the first pricipals, of the oracles of God, in great detail...I suggest you find my above posts and read it over, and over, again. We obvioulsy are on two different pages on what those mean. Your religion has made up it's own meanings, by taking those words out of context, and twisting them to fit mormonism. It is obvious that your religion has changed who God really is under those oracles that were misinterpreted..I do know Joseph Smith discusses oracles in a book he wrote. I believe in the God of the Holy bible, not a God that has been defined by false prophets, belonging to an organized religion! Besides,the whole oracle thing you went off on is not detrimental to my salvation. However, knowing and having a relationship with the REAL, and TRUE,Jesus Christ is! I suggest you find him....

  • Darell Outhier August 20, 2012 at 12:48 AM

    Blessings and love to you Mitzi.

  • Mitzi August 20, 2012 at 6:28 PM

    Thanks Darell,Same to you..

  • James November 5, 2012 at 3:21 AM

    It's hard enough to believe in Christianity itself. Mormonism adds another layer of non-sense. I'm not necessarily an agnostic, but if you look at a comparison between the gospels, they are all different. Confusing right? Written by different people, thus creating different stories. Jewish people reject the notion of Jesus entirely because he did not represent their messiah. It sounds like a religion on top of a religion. The same thing with Islam. The thing I don't get about Mormonism is not drinking alcohol. That's in sharp contrast to Jesus. Good luck with that one.

  • Rand January 17, 2013 at 10:39 AM

    To answer this question I recomend reading, IN FULL, our word of wisdom.

  • Madison January 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM

    You really don't seem to understand our what it means to be a Mormon. Or a christian for that matter. You really should have looked through those passages and talked to people of these faiths to truly understand the meaning of these religions. So all i can say next time look at what you are writing before you publish it.

  • Chase February 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM

    This isn't the most charitable treatment of Mormonism. I'm not a Mormon, but I wouldn't use many of these arguments (some of them are disputed among non-LDS Christians as well).
    Let me just point out 3 things that I feel warranted in saying.-

    1. Mormons are Christians, but not a Christian denomination. They are best classified as "LDS Christians":
    In so far as classification goes I could not claim Mormons are not Christians as they affirm the existence of God (even if they take a different view of His nature), believe they are saved through Christ, and have the witness of the Holy Spirit (more on this in the next point). At the same time, they do have several beliefs that are in contrast to, or are rightly not found in, Christian orthodoxy. This however does not mean we should reject they are Christians, it simply means they are unorthodox and are technically a Christian Cult.
    It must be said here that the term "cult" is not meant to be slanderous. Neither does such a classification determine that Mormonism is false. It is simply a term used to distinguish and even Mormons would say that the LDS Church is unique (or at least different from the denominations). However, because the term "cult" irrevocably carries a negative connotation, I think it would be fair to use the term "LDS Christian" to distinguish Mormons from the denominations.

    2. Mormons are/can be saved and have felt/can feel the witness of the Holy Spirit.:
    What most Mormons characterize as "a burning in the bosom" is what I would call the witness of the Holy Spirit. This experience allows maintaining certain basic Christian beliefs as properly basic (see the work of Alvin Plantinga*), such as, that God exists and loves me, I have a relationship with God, and Christ died for me. It is an inappropriate extrapolation to say, as most Mormons would claim, that the witness of the Holy Spirit has confirmed for them their entire theology they are holding to. So while Mormons are not lying to us when they speak of having had a confirmatory experience from God, they are mistaken in using that to confirm Mormonism.

    3. Mormons may well play a role in God's ultimate plan of salvation.:
    As stated above, I do believe that those Mormons who have truly repented and accepted Christ are saved from their sins, and I do acknowledge these Mormons are not liars or being over-emotional when they claim to have had a confirmatory experience from God.
    What this means is that despite the facts that Mormons unknowingly follow a false prophet and have troublesome doctrines, the LDS Church may be used by God to bring others to salvation. Although I think it is true that Mormonism is at root the result of deception, I also believe that God has long been in the practice of taking what was intended for evil and corruption to be used for good. If what I have previously said about Mormonism is true, then it seems to me more than plausible that the work carried out by the LDS is one of those instances.

  • Sarah March 4, 2013 at 7:05 AM

    Where in the bible does it say ANYTHING about us being able to achieve god-hood?

    Jesus is God's ONE AND ONLY SON. Jesus and Satan are not brothers.

    Mormons claim to use both the Bible and the Book of Mormon together. How can they do this when both books contradict each other?

    Why would people follow Joseph Smith? He was known for his tall tales.

  • christina April 16, 2013 at 4:34 PM

    READ Journal and discourses. there are 26 volumes..
    so corrupt. This would be scary if i didnt have Jesus.

  • OLH April 22, 2013 at 10:53 AM

    All I know is that I was raised Mormon and at 16 was SAVED. Very different than what they believe. By the way my mother is still Mormon. I obey God when he speaks to me. Please explain to me why he would tell me to get up and go pray with my 96 year old Grandma. Oh yeah, she was Mormon at the time and on her death bed. Now you want to talk about strange, I had no idea of how to pray with her, as I was filled with the Holy Ghost and she was Mormon. But when I got to the nursing home, I decided I would ask some questions. I started with: Have you seen the Pearly Gate, is it one Pearl or many? Who is guarding it? Have you seen Grandpa? That was the right question. She said yes and if I have enough strength again tomorrow I will fight him again. That was all I needed, I told her that God had sent me to pray with her. I prayed that we had been misled and that we rejected the Mormon belief and that we wanted to be with him in Glory. She was in agreement and was SAVED. At the end of the prayer she was so upset and asked me to tell all of her 102 family members that she had led into Mormonism. I agreed to write a book and that is the reason I am on this site, trying to gain some input on the differences between Christians and Mormons. Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: I may be wrong, but I thought this verse had a little to do with why I was told to pray with her. She was a great woman and deserved to go to Heaven. I am not a writer. I am in no way sinless. I am obedient to GOD and I know what happened.
    Believe it or not, I really don't care. I guess that's why I am having trouble with the book. I don't think her family would believe me. But I do know they sent someone into the Nursing home at the times I would visit, just to make sure of my intentions. To late I caught her before her medication and God did the rest. I will write the book and I wish for all Mormon's to see the wrong teachings that Joseph taught. Oh yeah before I go, if you have questions, please read The Restored Church, by William Edwin Berrett. From the Deseret Book Company 1961. I will have some information in my book from it. Reading Joseph's statement was enough to prove to me. But it has the history of how it all began. How Joseph says that both God and Jesus came to him and admitted they need him to start another church. At the time new churches were springing up everywhere. It was the time when immigrants were arriving everyday to escape the Catholic religion, They only approached the middle class, with the intent that they could become Gods. Very interesting reading. Scared my friends. I pray for all of you and I do know that Mormons are some of the best people, just misled. Good luck. May God have mercy on all of us.

  • Steve G May 19, 2013 at 10:20 PM

    All I can say is Amen to Jo H. There is ONE God and one God only. Believing you can achieve godhood is believing in more then one god. That is polytheism which then contradicts The Holy Bible. I stand strong as a Christian. Well said Jo. Nothing else to argue about.

  • Caleb May 22, 2013 at 6:02 PM

    I think the world needs this article some people think Mormons are Christians.

  • mdgfnvreaw May 24, 2013 at 8:51 AM

    I'm not clear if this is the proper spot to put this, nevertheless I have a real concern.

    What health bars are best for losing weight?

  • Harlan May 31, 2013 at 12:32 PM

    All you kind folks miss one small detail. The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints is not distinct from Christianity. IT IS CHRISTIANITY--by definition. Mormon Church is a nickname tacked onto us by enemies during the 19th Century who wished to detract from the fact that we ARE the Savior's Church. There is not now--nor has there ever been a "Mormon" Church. Similarly, there never has been a Protestant church. It is a theoretical appellation, not an actual organization. However, the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints is an actual organization of record, soon to be 15,000,000 strong...!

  • jhs June 13, 2013 at 1:56 AM

    I've read through quite a bit of the comments, and it seems like this article was offensive; however, I would like to point out there are major differences between Mormons and Christians (and I hope I don't come off as offensive and also I do not believe the author of this article intended to be offensive). I simply believe he wrote this to provide information for people like me who wanted to find the differences between Christianity and Mormonism because I also firmly believe there are some distinct differences.
    You see, I had the opportunity to talk to some Mormon missionaries at my school today, and they believed in some things that blatantly contradicted the Bible.

    1). They didn't believe in hell (at least according to the Bible"s definition); however, Jesus definitely did make references to Hell being a place of weeping and gnashing of the teeth -Luke 13:28, Matthew 13:42, but the missionaries with whom I spoke about hell just being a place of mind and that there would actually be no suffering. Unfortunately and sadly, there is a hell that does inflict pain to the souls.

    to be continued...

  • jhs June 13, 2013 at 1:58 AM

    continued...
    2). They also did greatly emphasize works. I also believe that works are evidence of faith, but the brother with whom I conversed straight out said that if one wasn't baptized and didn't follow the laws of the Bible that person would be judged harshly by God and sent to the lower levels of heaven (whatever that may mean...). Anyhow, I was distressed by how set he was on the aspect of works; whereas, for me I believe and rely much more on God's grace. It is NEVER by my own works that I have the ability to be saved, because no matter how hard we try to be good it will NEVER be good enough. Even if I managed to save millions and millions of lives and never thought an inkling of evil, that would never be enough to be good enough to stand before God. Because God is perfect, almighty, and so much more powerful than our human minds can grasp.
    I think that's why Jesus lived out his three years of ministry with those who were the considered the dregs of society, not out of charity, but simply to show an example. The example, I believe, was to show the type of people who will actually come to Jesus - those who fully understand the depths of their sins and how far below they are compared to God. There is no comparison to us and God, BUT that is why grace exists. Grace saves when we can't save ourselves, because we can't no matter how hard we work. That's why my main concern with being on this earth is to follow the greatest commandment of all: to Love the Lord your God with all my HEART, all my SOUL, and all my MIND. (Matthew 22:37). And, in turn when I asked God to teach me how to love Him, I found my heart break for what breaks His, which are the poor, broken, and lost.

    one more part (last part, I promise!)

  • jhs June 13, 2013 at 1:58 AM

    My greatest mission in life is actually not to save lives, but it is solely and wholly to love God with everything I have. In the process of falling in love with God, I have seen myself to do some crazy stuff. Stuff I thought I would never do before. Stuff that my parents, friends, and acquaintances never believed I would do like going overseas to communist countries to mission and sacrificing immense amounts of time, money (at least for a broke college student), and energy to disciple his people and invest in the church. You see, I used to dedicate all my thoughts and energies to be successful and gain for selfish motives, but God has transformed me and continues to mold me. In the process of learning to love God I have grown to love His Children and His Creation which is my motive for sharing my faith and shining the light in the ways that I can. My intent in writing this is not to disprove or convert Mormons, but to shed light on what I believe to be truth. You may disagree and that is your choice. My main and sole purpose in writing this is simply to bring Glory to God. The reason I follow God's commandments is an act of love, nothing more, nothing less. I still definitely struggle with earthly desires but I strive everyday to bear fruit because it will be pleasing to my God not to gain status or rewards. Because no matter how much I do, it will never amount to what Jesus did for me on the cross.

    That is all. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

  • Sutton July 14, 2013 at 9:27 AM

    I should first say that I'm a Mormon. In fact I was a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in your area, Biola. I even went to your gift shop and bought a shirt and also admired the large mural of Christ on your campus. You have a great campus, by the way. Anyways, I was impressed while reading this article. Usually articles about Mormons are very ignorant but this one is not so. I would, however, like to point out a few things. The veiled message in this article is that Mormons believe that one mess-up sends you straight to hell. This is completely false. Aside from the fact that we reject the traditional hell anyway, you have to realize that the main message in the Book of Mormon, just like the Bible, is that no matter what you have done in the past or will do in the future, Christ will save you if you strive to do what he asks. The prophet who said the scripture in Alma 5 quoted in the article, Alma, is the perfect example of how Christ's grace can transform a person from something lost to something redeemed and happy. He was an athiest striving to convince people to not follow Christ until one day an angel appeared to him commanding him to repent. He spent three days wracked with the pain that only sin can bring. It wasn't until he prayed for forgiveness did he feel relieved of the guilt and sorrow and became redeemed. Just because we are saved by Christ's grace doesn't mean we should not be good people because after all "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone (James 2:17 The entire chapter talks about works)." It is both faith in Christ and works, not perfect works necessarily, that will be the deciding factor in the end. If you have any questions or if you just want to chat about religion feel free to email me at sutton1190(at)gmail.com.

  • Mike July 16, 2013 at 8:43 AM

    It needs to be the Bible, ONLY. Not the Book of Mormons AND the Bible.

  • Christina July 16, 2013 at 5:06 PM

    If anyone wants to see how clear it is that Mormons are working for satan read journal and discourse, they are very clear in there sermons, they have a plan to make every one turn to them, that's why they are building the kingdom Zion, they are waiting for a disaster so many people will flee to Zion.
    These are sermons that the younger generations are not taught because they are just working for the higher up Mormons who are part of a much bigger plan

  • Sutton July 21, 2013 at 8:44 AM

    I'm sorry Christina but that is completely false.

  • Christina July 27, 2013 at 1:10 AM

    If you read them you may see it if God reveals it to you.
    They have you so deceived. I know some of you truly want Christ but your staved to death by there twist in truth, it's subtle like the serpent, but very obvious to those who know there God
    If you believe the bible is Gods word only look to that, do not believe that he needed another. Only Gods grace can save. That's what changes you , it's not following the law, the law kills
    One day, you will have to stand in front of God based on the law and then be condemned because you will be judged by the law ....if you really believe,you want to do what is right, you dont have to do whats right .this is not because of your rewards that you think you will get, your only reward if you follow faithfully which is the work, the work of the Holy Spirit if you have it is eternal life. What is eternal life? To know him! Nothing else! It's not your own kingdom it's not to be God your self.
    When you read those sermons it sounds like there plan was to create a kingdom with law and order, and to wait for a economic calapse so everyone can flee to Zion. But that is besides the point.

  • Christina July 27, 2013 at 1:43 AM

    If you read the journal and discourses it is the law and the order and belief in jesus and also in Joseph smith for eternal salvation,
    The bible says
    It is Jesus Christ alone, He is enough. He is enough to change our human nature by really trusting in him alone.
    So there is truth with lies
    If you have 99% water and 1% poison it will still kill you.
    6000 languages with the same message, 1800s come around here comes every other religion the historical church has always been, and it matches the bible

  • Sutton August 2, 2013 at 2:03 PM

    I respect your views but I'll still hold to mine for I know that they come from God. I respect and love Christians of all types because they all do good. I rejoice that so many churches teach to have faith in Christ because that is, like you said Christina, where salvation is centered. And as far as our belief in deification, that of God wanting to make us gods ourselves through Christ's sacrifice, goes, it only makes sense to me that a God who loves us perfectly would want to give us all the he has. If you want to know what the Church's official views are on Joseph Smith and salvation, go to mormon.org/joseph-smith

  • mario c September 6, 2013 at 5:39 AM

    Bottom line mormons r a cult and again go back to the original 12 commandments you will not worship mother gods or saints before me so if that wasnt true we would look at Bill Grahm as a god and again if this so called smith re-wrote the bible why hasnt "BILLY GRAHM" ???? mormons are just as bad as catholics bottom line they need to relly pray casue when our lord returns he will have the real answers and all this argument stuff would have been a waste of time for the mormons I wonder where did this smith guy go ? heaven ? cause I pray everyday and I have not heard of him in my "NKJ" bible nor the old testament so basiclly he came like thos so called saints other people beleive in god has his messengers and they all came to earth with his words and instructions they didnt come to change anything unless god commanded it and if that was the case then all these changes would have been made before jesus was born and we would all b mormons but the devil sure does know where to get his crew of cult members and try to turn things around not just with the mormons but other religions wich craft black magick and most importantly the athiest well I stand by my christianity even if it means losing allot I will keep you mormons in my prayer I dont mean to offend anyone and I am just speaking on my behalf no need to hate cause if you beleive in god he will sort them out and it is by his will where we go in our religion but again "Nothing can take me away from my GOD" think of that song afer yo finish reading GOD bless you all I have spoken

  • hmmmmmm... September 18, 2013 at 9:05 PM

    12 commandments?

  • emily October 21, 2013 at 2:10 PM

    I am a former born-and-raised Mormon and am now an incredibly blessed born-again Christian . Many responders to this are are right in that one cannot determine who really is a Christian. Only God knows that. I believe that there are many Mormons who do believe that Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ only is the reason we are even here, and they are just mixed up in this religion. I do also believe that there are many who do not believe that, and instead rely on a relationship with this church rather than the Savior. The issue is not the followers, but the root of this church and its misleading teachings. Sadly, God's deity is stripped within them and that is the biggest issue Christians take with the church. Unfortunately, it can inappropriately come across as hateful and mean-spirited, when it should be spoken about out of love.

  • Mark October 28, 2013 at 10:52 AM

    The person who wrote this article obviously doesn't like LDS because the person smart enough to find the scriptures that might look bad on LDS would've been smart enough to realize in the next few verses, Alma continues to explain that this is what some believe and what we dont/shouldn't do. This is not the only counter example for this article.

  • Angel November 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM

    Revelation 22:18–19
    18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in qthe tree of life and in rthe holy city, which are described in this book.

  • Angel November 7, 2013 at 7:06 PM

    Bottom line adding and taking away from the bible is wrong!the bible is perfect all by itself !!!!
    The bible speaks about false doctrines and religions that add and take away from the scriptures.
    The only true deciles are the 12 that walked with Christ 2000 years ago other than that everything
    Else is false!!! Only the holy bible speaks truth anything more than that is false!

  • no one November 16, 2013 at 3:07 AM

    Look how much this man made everyone argue. It's ridiculous.
    The only thing that matters is that our heavenly father loves each and every one of us.
    Loved us so, that he gave his only begotten son. He literally knows each and every one of us personally. and every obstacle we face. and evey struggle we feel.
    Beliefs are a tough subject.... There will be somethings we will NEVER understand.... until the time comes to reveal them to us.

  • Rabuigi November 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM

    David, the meaning of life is to glorify God, and to praise Him, that's why he created us! I believe the Holy Bible is the true word of God and I will put my faith in that

  • Marty December 31, 2013 at 11:33 AM

    I was raised Mormon, LDS or what ever you want to call these people. When my daughter came to me and ask who Jesus was I couldnt answer her the way that I wanted to. So I began searching the bible and other religions. I am now a Christian and beleive only in the bible. If any of you want to read a good book read: Carma Naylor's A Mormons unexpected Journey. she Cross referrences the Bible. As I was reading all the comments it floored me as to how these LDS felt like they had to protect their beliefs and use their scriptures and I didnt see and bible verses. When I left ths cult I was told by a bishop that I would lose my family and that my baptism met nothing and that I was a threat to the mormons. What ever I thought go ahead and threaten me. i am not one to go out and bash this religon, I am just trying to live a good live and by God's word and return to him someday. May god Bless each and everyone of you!

  • Anne March 2, 2014 at 12:24 PM

    wow, I am so surprised to see so much negativity from the mormon community. this article wasnt intended to demean any religion. it is simply a look at the differences between religions. the author clearly does not take a side in this article. If he was trying to paint a negative picture of the mormon community then he would have done so with some of the more "interesting" beliefs of mormons. open your minds people. in the end NO ONE knows if heaven and hell, God and Jesus and all the stories of all the different bibles of the world are real, right or wrong or all of them simply God interjecting himself into peoples lives the way they need him to the most.

  • rheon March 3, 2014 at 8:17 PM

    I just read ALL of these comments, thank you! But if seems to me if anyone just did some historical research on Joseph Smith, there's no need for further debate. He was raised in a community of magic-believers, and his fantastic "interpretation" is nearly identical to a fictional book - that went missing from a house where he was digging a well. Wikipedia, folks. It's astounding that a religious empire was built on these crazy premises.

  • rheon March 3, 2014 at 8:52 PM

    All from wikipedia, very interesting to research -

    Smith's reputation among his Palmyra neighbors was that of a "nondescript farm boy" who was "lazy and superstitious," and townspeople viewed his family as "treasure-seekers, not eager Christians."

    From about 1819, Smith regularly practiced scrying, a form of divination in which a "seer" looked into a seer stone to receive supernatural knowledge.[67] Smith usually practiced crystal gazing by putting a stone at the bottom of a white stovepipe hat, putting his face over the hat to block the light, then divining information from the stone.

    Beginning as a youth in the early 1820s, Smith was periodically hired, for about $14 per month, as a scryer, using what were termed "seer stones" in attempts to locate lost items and buried treasure.

    Around 1812, Solomon Spaulding completed a historical romance entitled "Manuscript, Found" which "purported to have been a record found buried in the earth".

    Joseph Smith's first stone, apparently the same one he used at least part of the time to translate the golden plates, was chocolate-colored and about the size of an egg,[27] found in a deep well he helped dig for one of his neighbors.

    According to Beadle, Rev. Spalding's widow "had another complete copy, but in the year 1825, while residing in Ontario Co., N. Y., next door to a man named Stroude, for whom Joe Smith was digging a well, that copy was also lost. Mrs. Spalding thinks it was stolen from her trunk."

    In 1833, Spalding's brother John and seven other residents of Conneaut signed affidavits stating that Spalding had written a manuscript, portions of which were identical to the Book of Mormon.


  • rheon March 3, 2014 at 9:14 PM

    google and read "difficult questions for Mormons"

  • Chris March 20, 2014 at 12:14 AM

    Thoughts from a Mormon:

    Heavy burden of works: Partially true, but exaggerated and not unbiblical. There is indeed a heavy burden on works in the LDS church, but they are not the source of salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith (Eph. 2:8), therefore faith is what is required to access grace. Faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Works are for the perfecting of faith (James 2:22). All of this is biblical. Personally I tend to stay away from any extremisms. The extremisms of grace represented by Evangelical Christians and the extremisms of works represented by Catholics are two examples. The summum bonum of it is that by focusing on works, for the purpose of perfecting faith and then relying on the grace of Him Who is Mighty to Save, men can be redeemed from the effects of the Fall and achieve much good in this life while they’re at it, which leads us to another point.

    Original sin: Because of the Fall, all men experience two kinds of death: physical death (separation of the body from the spirit) and spiritual death (separation of man from God). The Atonement of Jesus Christ provides resurrection as a free gift to all and the freedom to lay hold on salvation through faith in our Lord and Savior. That being said, we do not believe that children who die without being baptized are unable to reach heaven because their soul is tainted from the Fall (this is primarily a Catholic and Orthodox belief). In this, we don’t believe that a person will be kept from heaven because of the sin of Adam.

    Faith: most of the discourses on faith in the Book of Mormon are incomplete. The people that are being taught are followers of Christ who have lost their way a bit. Faith in the LDS Church is a powerful belief which motivates a person to action. This belief may be based upon knowledge, but because action is always pointed toward the future, it is never something which is seen. This is a principle which is unfortunately misunderstood by many Mormons as well. As such, faith is generally based upon experience (knowledge) but it is only faith once it is being directed toward the future in the form of trust in the Lord. True LDS doctrine soundly rejects the idea of “blind faith.”

    Godhood: Pretty fairly described. Claim it to be blasphemy all you want, we simply take the idea of becoming like Christ a bit farther than mainstream Christianity does.

  • Chris March 20, 2014 at 12:15 AM

    Continued from above...

    God is spirit: therefore God has no body? God is love, therefore god is nothing more than an emotion? God is light, therefore god is nothing more than one of five types of energy? The word was God, therefore God was nothing more than a verbal creation? John 2:24 states that “God is spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” The question is: does the phrase “God is spirit” constitute a definition or an attribute? All of the other things that God has been equated to above were attributes, not definitions as demonstrated by the rhetorical questions. As such, they do not exclude other things. There are numerous other occasions in which Christ specifically demonstrates His physicality, post-resurrection, to the Apostles. The use of John 2:24 is an example of selective reading, and as an argument, generally represents a straw-man fallacy.

    Oh and as far as Spaulding.... just.... lol....
    The LDS Church at one point took it upon themselves to restore to print Solomon Spaulding’s book so that everyone could read it for themselves. It matches with historical versions, so it wasn’t altered by the LDS Church. We have nothing to fear from that argument, lol.

  • Chris March 20, 2014 at 12:23 AM

    And finally @Rheon, go ahead and google it and ask it. I've googled it and I can generally answer them. The only thing that ever makes them difficult to answer is your preconceived ideas of what the answers should be.

  • Jane Nichelle April 3, 2014 at 10:26 AM

    I've read this article and many comments, as well as additional views from Catholics, Mormons, Protestants and one Mormon who converted to Christianity. There's a big argument regarding faith and works together, which means something different to Mormons and Christians... I'm a christian teen and i believe that no one deserves discrimination for their beliefs, even if they're wrong. To me grace and salvation rescued me from Hell. Jesus lived the perfect life so that he would be the perfect sacrifice for the world's actions against God. Without God I can do good things... but they are nothing compared to God. No matter how nice, smart, loving and serving I am an evil person ( A lot of people don't like to be called evil, but if we want to know the imprtance of grace, we need to know that we are evil.) Works do not do anything for us... works don't make us righteous. Faith does. Faith without works is dead because it means that we don't value grace. If we value grace and we have faith in that grace from the SON OF GOD, who died the worst death for us and put himself under wrath, this is the pain of Hell... is that sacrifice hard to value? Afterwords we take joy in Gods grace and we put our faith in Christ to live good lives ( in which we will stumble but the grace is there) we do works so that others will see the love of God (1 Corinthiqns 13: 1- 3 works with no love)
    Works are not for ourselves in terms of salvation... they are to testify what God does in my life. If you want to learn from God instead, Romans is a great book about faith. Read it with a pastor.. If no one is reaching out to you, know that Jesus is.


  • Taylor April 3, 2014 at 9:35 PM

    ELE. Everybody LOVE Everybody. this was the biggest emphasis on Christ's doctrine AND a commandment. Stop the hate, the fighting, the arguing, the rejection, the bashing and all other negatives. For this was not of Christ. And all those who do these things are not of Christ also.

  • Randal smith April 8, 2014 at 2:57 PM

    Mainstream Christians can know that Mormons are NOT Christian by certain beliefs. Christians don't believe that God was once a man just like we are. They don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is a part of Scripture. They don't believe we can become as God and have people worship us. Catholics, the largest body of Christian believers, and Protestants, the second largest body of Christian believers, agree on this, and also agree on the basic major tenants of Christianity.

  • Randal smith April 8, 2014 at 3:14 PM

    Mormons have a right to say they are the true Christians. But mainstream Christianity has a right to define what a Christian is according to our terms. No Arguing, no knocking people, it's just the way it is.

  • Janelle May 11, 2014 at 4:24 PM

    Thanks for explaining this. I am a Christian and I have always heard that Mormons are just like us, but if that was true then why are we called different names? But now I know that there are many differences.

  • Taras Pankovets June 4, 2014 at 1:34 AM

    In the bible it says REV 22; 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
    In Russian bible it says anyone who adds words or takes words out from bible there cursed. All mormons are cursed for not listing to the lord jesus. plus read this from john 14the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. MORMONS DONT HAVE THE SPIRIT IN THEM, THEY DONT KNOW IT AND WONT KNOW THE TRUTH. I am Proud to be a child of God ill pray so Mormons (antichrist spirit) will repent and believe in the true Jesus, not in a fake one they made.

  • Jean June 12, 2014 at 10:25 PM

    What do you think about a decade proposed a technology consultant from Mitchellville, Md. A look at the funeral home can provide you with the board for all the women are presented as sexual predators to one of the Sandy Hook Elementary School, in our native plant life time only?

  • Angela Loupe July 4, 2014 at 11:15 PM

    May I just say...God is reachable. So far, He revealed Himself in a bright white light to me, accompanied by a lovely, pure peace, where He gave me a revelation about my life. Then, He supernaturally sprinkled me with water and anointed me with oil...in the physical world, no one was pouring water or oil on me, and yet, I felt it clear as day. Also, He touched me on the mouth with the power of the Holy Spirit...it is a fierce, mighty power, that would frighten anyone to death who was not on the right side of it. And these are not all of them. Read Luke 11 and Luke 18. Do that. He will answer you, too. There is nothing special about me at all. So, if He will answer me, He will answer you, too. Seek Him.

  • LDS member August 29, 2014 at 3:28 PM

    quote from Joseph Stevenson:
    The book of Mormon is true, why do you fight against something so much without investigating it first? That's ignorance, contention is of the devil, Satan himself knows that the book of Mormon is true, that's why Satan seized upon Joseph as he went to pray to ask God which religion is true, Satan almost destroyed young Joseph, but God and Christ delivered him as he contended against the evil force. That's why opposition arose against him, leaders from other religions persecuted him, a religious leader lead the mob that killed the Prophet Joseph Smith. I defend the Prophet, I defend the book of Mormon, and I defend the bible. One isn't complete without the other. Do you go about roaming the internet looking for contention? Do you go about doing good and uplifting others? Are you Christian or a Contender? Everyone is sharing testimony and some bag others for it! Is not this what Lucifer wants? Religious freedom is at stake and yet our Christian neighbors are still fighting amongst themselves! Our leaders are coming together to combat the growing influence of the world, and yet their members are still at war with each other. Satan is smarter than the Christian man because he knows that he will contend against revealed truth from God, he knows that the Christian man will be ignorant and hostile towards the full truth and that he will not believe in the fact that God speaks today, and that God will give more of His word. How can you believe in a living God when you say He doesn't speak even today? You must believe in a dead God and an incomplete imperfect bible then. We believe He is the same yesterday, today and forever! That He speaks now to His children and reveals more of His word, can man stretch forth his puny arm and silence God from speaking and revealing more of His word's? If you believe Satan speaks more lies today as yesterday and forever, can not God then speak more today than yesterday and forever?
    God never changes, He is the same as he was when the earth was created, Adam's time, Moses, Jesus, and NOW. He speaks, he reveals, he performs miracles....why is it so hard for MAN to believe this? arrogance? ignorance?

  • Cyril September 4, 2014 at 8:18 AM

    Points I want to correct, In New testament times, members of the Church of Jesus Christ were referred to as Christians by unbelievers in Christ. In Paul' letters and that of the other apostles, believers were called Saints. Firstly, I don't care what non-Mormons think about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because it does nothing to the destiny of the Church. Second: If Mormons are not Christians the way sentimental Christians think they should be, it does not change the knowledge they have come to know or wane the testimony of the Holy Ghost to their hearts that made them face even death. I have never met a Mormon I don't like but many so-called born agains are snakes and scorpions.

  • Awoken September 18, 2014 at 3:07 PM

    Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord.

    And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

    Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord.

    And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

    Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is ONE Lord.

    And you shall love your neighbour as yourself.

  • Awoken September 18, 2014 at 4:25 PM

    How did Joseph Smith claim to come to know God?
    He read the bible and acted upon the Word.
    Same as all christians do.
    Yet suddenly the bible is not sufficient to bring one to a knowledge of God and one must have the book of mormon, additional doctrine and covenants and prophets, seers and revelators.
    Why was the bible sufficient for Joseph to know God but not for anyone since or prior to Joseph other than the very early church, who incidentally only had the old testament in written format, the gospel or new testament wasn't even recorded till after the death of the apostles.
    Lds doctrine is that no person has ever been brought to a knowledge of God by the bible.
    God introduced the gospel then removed it and left scriptures that are insufficent to bring man into relationship with him for 1800 years.
    I love parts of the book of mormon, aside from the parts lifted straight out of the kjv of the bible.
    There are great spiritual insights in those parts, there is testimony of Christ and there are wonderful sermons.
    Was Joseph then a prophet?
    No.
    He prophesied many things that did not come true.
    He spoke falsehoods in Christs name.
    He forced plural marriage upon innocent women.
    He boasted and glorified himself.
    He was however an amalgamator.
    He collected "truth" as he saw it and vividly imagined stories.
    The book of mormon is simply an amalgamation of for example the spiritual vision of his father, methodist and other sermons he had heard preached, parts of the bible and a made up adventure parable.
    Read the book of mormon substituting joseph for nephi and you will get my drift.
    "I, joseph, having been born of goodly parents..." etc
    The book of mormon contradicts the d+c and the later practices of joseph.
    The book of Abraham is made up farce, he got away with it at the time because no-one understood egyptology like we do now.
    Cont'd...

  • Awoken September 18, 2014 at 4:27 PM

    Cont'd...
    The temples are about dedication to the church as a corporate entity not dedication to God himself.
    Mormons struggle to pay the 10% tithe demanded for temple entrance and celestial entry yet they claim superiority over those who have consecrated their lives to christ.
    Many who have consecrated their lives to christ have faced persecution, hardship, suffering detention and even death. Yet the mormons with all their wealth and privilege and comfortable lives have determined themselves a greater place in heaven than these.
    I wanted to run out the temple the first time I went through, had I known they used to use masonic death threats I.e. Slitting of the throat in earlier endowment ceremonies thewouldn't have seen me for dust. Unfortunately I went through many more times and it took me a long time to extricate myself from their pernicious doctrines.
    I joined the church as one with a witness of Jesus Christ but I was new in the faith and as mentioned in above comments they drip feed you the doctrine, everything at first is biblical, faith, repentance, baptism, holy spirit. It is only once you are already invested in the church that you begin to learn of the deeper, darker doctrine and statements of church leaders.
    I love my mormon friends, many of whom have real faith in Jesus. I admire many of the principles taught and I respect the unity that exists amongst the church.
    However I hate what the church has done to me, it weakened and confused my faith, it set me on a wrong path and it twisted my conscience over doing work for my dead relatives. It gave me false and misleading prophecy through my "patriarchal blessing and it left me with hundreds of unanswered questions. It divided me from my family and at best it was a complete waste of time.
    I'd like to say I'm completely free of it but I'm not, there are others left in it I have to think of.
    They don't even know God's name.
    Elohim is a title it's not a personal noun or name, It's like saying someone's name is sir.
    May God bless all your minds in your search for truth and fill all your hearts with love.
    Yeshua (Jesus) is Lord.
    Yahweh is our God.
    Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord.

    Peace x

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  • Don November 6, 2014 at 7:34 PM

    Wow, this is the longest comments section I have ever seen on any blog/post/website, ever.

    I'm not going to pretend I know the Book of Mormon (although I am reading it) and I don't know exactly what it does or doesn't say about dark skinned people, but I can certainly tell you where this doctrine came from. It came from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud. Masonry, the Kaballah and Judaism(Talmudism) are all Satanic religions and the worship the devil - gods like Saturn, Moloch, Remphan, Chiang, Horus, etc.. Why do you think the most racist people on earth are "Jews"? and the people calling themselves Jews today have no DNA relation to the ancient Hebrew, which has been proven by DNA RESEARCH (by "Jews") in 2001 at Hebrew University by Ariella Oppenheimer, and in 2012 by Eran Elhaik ("Jew") at Johns Hopkins. This research was published by Oxford University Press and was peer-reviewed. Multiple "Jewish" historians also wrote about the Khazarian roots of today's "Jews". read Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.

  • ADRIAN JEFFRYES November 17, 2014 at 2:17 PM

    and so sayeth your mind, that you shall do as good as you are and have been taught to be! Your mind has been taught to deliver that which is good for future beings and then your mind will end. You do not have to believe that you will live forever just because you think you are intelligent. Intelligence is your favourite belief alone. All living entities shall become compost or elements to start another universal process. Your so called mind will entertain you because you were taught to fear death. If you were not taught to love or hate where would you be? Would you be on the religious path or survival path? I only bank on the path I have been taught and I fear not the future after I am gone from this planet. I really do not believe in so called faith in a life hereafter as I feel it is an arrogant belief system devoid of eco-centrism. I endeavour to make a difference before I leave the planet and not to delve into selfish religiosity. We are simply elemental in our being and destined to chemical fundamentality! The universe has always been here and will always be here forever and ever, will be!

  • Toni Penuel November 30, 2014 at 12:04 AM

    We cannot know the truth of something by a "feeling of warmth in the bosom" or a feeling that something is true. The warmth in the bosom could be heartburn. Feelings are deceptive. People often think that they have a feeling that something good is going to happen and the exact opposite is what actually happens. So much for feelings. Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God and going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.
    Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness. When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.
    The Catholic Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from His works, by the natural light of human reason.
    We really can name God, starting from the manifold perfections of His creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery. Without the Creator, the creature vanishes. This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know Him or who reject Him.
    It is not our feelings that tell us if something is true. By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of His works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation. Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed Himself and given Himself to man. This He does by revealing the mystery, His plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending His beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

  • Shawn Keifer December 8, 2014 at 4:31 PM

    Actually the Holy Bible states that you cannot be saved by your works. Salvation ONLY comes the blood shed by Jesus Christ that was an atonement for our sins. The Bible is very clear that no one will come before the Almighty except through the Son. For mormons or any other false religion to believe that they will not be punished and burn forever in the depths of Hell for following charismatic false prophets who molest children and believe in multiple wives my heart aches for you. Not only are you on the road to eternal damnation but so are your children and their children and all generations that flow in your footsteps. You may feel that I am a Bible thumping crazy Christian but I'm not. I am true flower of the one true God, the Father The son and the Holy Spirit three in one.

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